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Sexism and Men's Issues

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MOD NOTE: Please note the following part of the forum rules:

If you don't like a thread, don't post in it. Posting in a thread simply to say you don't like it, or that it's stupid, or to point out that you 'knew who made it before you even clicked on it', or to predict that it will end badly will get you warned.

The initial OP posted below covers it well enough: the premise of this thread is that men's issues exist. Don't bother posting if you don't believe there is such a thing.


Here's hoping this isn't considered too redundant. I've noticed that our existing threads about sexism tend to get bogged down in Oppression Olympics or else wildly derailed, so I thought I'd make a thread specifically to talk about discrimination issues that disproportionately affect men.

No Oppression Olympics here, okay? No saying "But that's not important because women suffer X which is worse!" And no discussing these issues purely in terms of how much better women have it. Okay? If the discussion cannot meaningfully proceed without making a comparison to male and female treatment, that's fine, but on the whole I want this thread to be about how men are harmed by society and how we can fix it. Issues like:

  • The male-only draft (in countries that have one)
  • Circumcision
  • Cavalier attitudes toward men's pain and sickness, AKA "Walk it off!"
  • The Success Myth, which defines a man's desirability by his material success. Also The Myth of Men Not Being Hot, which denies that men can be sexually attractive as male beings.
  • Sexual abuse of men.
  • Family law.
  • General attitudes that men are dangerous or untrustworthy.

I could go on making the list, but I think you get the idea.

Despite what you might have heard about feminists not caring about men, it's not true. I care about men. Patriarchy sucks for them as much as it sucks for women, in a lot of ways. So I'm putting my keyboard where my mouth is and making a thread for us to all care about men.

Also? If you're male and think of something as a men's issue, by golly that makes it a men's issue fit for inclusion in this thread. I might disagree with you as to the solution, but as a woman I'm not going to tell you you have no right to be concerned about it. No "womansplaining" here.

Edited by nombretomado on Dec 15th 2019 at 5:19:34 AM

TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#21226: Jan 25th 2023 at 1:42:14 PM

[up]

Additionally, such attitudes are demoralizing for trans men, specifically F to M.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#21227: Jan 25th 2023 at 1:59:31 PM

The whole reason this thread has a note about the forum ruled pinned to it is because for a long time we had a number of people in the forum who came here to claim that Men’s Issues weren’t real and that the only ‘true’ sexism worth combating was that aimed at women.

I’m pretty sure the people doing it were exclusively men.

It also comes up in really basic things. You’ll notice that some men will apologise to women in the room when they (the man) uses rude language. That’s both misogynistic (assuming women are offended by swearing) and misandrist (assuming that men who might be offended aren’t worthy of an apology).

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#21228: Jan 25th 2023 at 9:55:16 PM

[up]Yeah, for a while it was hard to talk about men issue without feeling the entire converssation was about how bad they treat woman and being a good ally which made stuff frustrating.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#21229: Jan 26th 2023 at 6:20:40 AM

[up] & [up][up]

I think the reason why that happens is because of something we could call "Cognitive Rebalancing".

Basically, people who come from a privileged position (be it men or straight people) who suddenly become aware of the power imbalance will try to readjust it in favour of the ones they feel are less privileged, and while this can be channeled in positive ways like more empathy, it can also lead to a strong guilt complex in which the privileged group becomes an enemy.

Think of it like the difference between an usonian who is critical of their country's history and wants it to be better and another who is a tankie who wants the USA to go under.

Edited by raziel365 on Jan 26th 2023 at 6:22:59 AM

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#21231: Jan 26th 2023 at 12:26:40 PM

With toxic masculinity, it's the "toxic" part that's the issue.

Don't do stupid things to prove your masculinity, don't use it to flex on others, don't mistreat people who seem less masculine.

Leviticus 19:34
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#21232: Jan 27th 2023 at 5:54:28 PM

[up]Well said.

It's really frustrating how many men reflexively recoil from the phrase "toxic masculinity" as if it was an attack on masculinity itself. That progressives feel the need to add "toxic" to the phrase really should give away that it doesn't mean that at all.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Lyendith Since: Mar, 2011
#21233: Jan 27th 2023 at 8:43:10 PM

What even is masculinity anyway?

You have four hours. tongue

terumokou Pitiable and Illegally Dumped Object from In a bamboo forest full of bunnies, California Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: Mu
Pitiable and Illegally Dumped Object
#21234: Jan 27th 2023 at 10:58:40 PM

[up]To quote Commander Badass and why the future has a whole religion about Marlon Brando:

"Best be showin' some r'spect fer Marlon there, the man's a religious icon where I come from. Followers of the Bran-Dao believe that you don't gotta be running your mouth to prove how macho you are. Just gotta be confident and put your all into what you do, and people will fill in the rest themselves. We believe if you live your life right, you reach a state of Nirvmana where the whole universe is in complete recognition of your masculinity."

Edited by terumokou on Jan 27th 2023 at 11:01:02 AM

Burning love!
CosmosAndChaos Peach from Brazil (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: Hugging my pillow
Peach
#21235: Jan 31st 2023 at 4:13:43 PM

(Sigh) Sometimes, I feel like the fight for actual equality is a lost cause.

Edited by CosmosAndChaos on Jan 31st 2023 at 9:49:23 AM

"Oh, did I win?"
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#21236: Feb 1st 2023 at 3:38:45 PM

One look of history should show that to be wrong, our society has issues unique to it but there has been very real progress on matters of social equality. We casually assume a level of egalitarianism that would be unthinkable to feudal societies.

Victory is never inevitable but reactionary social forces have been defeated before and they can be defeated again.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Murataku Don't Feed The Plant from Straya Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Don't Feed The Plant
#21237: Feb 1st 2023 at 5:17:41 PM

I've found that; sometimes people get so focussed on issues (that, to be fair, are important and should be dealt with) that they fall into the trap of saying "Life is worse now than it has ever been!"

When, as a whole, it's really not.

You need blood and he's got more than enough!
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#21238: Feb 1st 2023 at 5:20:05 PM

Another thing is that, honestly, a lot of these problems have always been there. It's just that it's only fairly recently that we've acknowledged that these are problems.

And that's a good thing actually. Because while acknowledging a problem is far from the only step to handling it, it's still a necessary first step.

Disgusted, but not surprised
editerguy from Australia Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#21239: Feb 1st 2023 at 6:00:00 PM

[up][up] True. Can't expect utopia.

There are many freedoms that were impossible just 60, 70 years ago. It's worth appreciating.

CosmosAndChaos Peach from Brazil (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: Hugging my pillow
Peach
#21240: Feb 15th 2023 at 7:52:10 AM
Thumped: This post has been thumped with the mod stick. This means knock it off.
"Oh, did I win?"
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#21241: Feb 15th 2023 at 7:53:31 AM

And that mindset will help solve that problem because? Seems real self-defeating to me.

Risa123 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#21242: Feb 15th 2023 at 9:10:47 AM

I would say that pretty much anything is possible, you just need enough people to believe in it. Also, I do not care if we can "beat evil" for a moral person there is no other option than fight. That is admittedly more for philosophy then this thread.

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#21243: Feb 15th 2023 at 9:22:18 AM

Yeah, I can't prescribe to that idea either. Especially given my own ethnicity's history of activism and success.

Robbery Since: Jul, 2012
#21244: Feb 15th 2023 at 1:13:53 PM

I agree entirely that "toxic masculinity" is bad for everyone, but too often "non-toxic" or "beneficial" masculinity is entirely characterized as what's helpful to or comfortable for women. Too often the conversation (or possibly just the conversation that I hear) is "here's how straight men need to change to be more beneficial and acceptable to women and receptive to their needs." Just as women shouldn't have to define themselves by how they relate to men, men shouldn't have to define themselves on how they relate to women.

Edited by Robbery on Feb 15th 2023 at 1:15:51 AM

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#21245: Feb 15th 2023 at 1:18:40 PM

Yeah even this very thread used to have that complain for a while.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Lyendith Since: Mar, 2011
#21246: Feb 15th 2023 at 1:43:57 PM

[up][up] Would you have examples of that mindset?

Anyway, we always come back to the question of what makes someone "masculine" to begin with. Being assertive and confident? Using your physical strength for good? Helping and protecting others? Being in control of your emotions? Wearing pants?

If so then the "toxic" version would be a distortion of those − being controlling and tyranical, using your physical strength to assert dominance, helping and protecting mostly yourself and repressing your emotions to an unhealthy degree.

Murataku Don't Feed The Plant from Straya Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Don't Feed The Plant
#21247: Feb 15th 2023 at 2:43:06 PM

[up]I can only think of one example off the top of my head, but I guess the expectation that men must use their physical strength to help people (especially women) in trouble might count? I mean yes, if you see someone in trouble and are able to help, then you should help. But I mean like men being shamed for not involving themselves in highly dangerous situations to help others while women who didn't interfere in that same situation were excused.

I've seen this happen but this is just off the top of my head, don't quote me on it, heh.

Edited by Murataku on Feb 15th 2023 at 9:43:28 PM

You need blood and he's got more than enough!
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#21248: Feb 15th 2023 at 4:11:07 PM

I agree entirely that "toxic masculinity" is bad for everyone, but too often "non-toxic" or "beneficial" masculinity is entirely characterized as what's helpful to or comfortable for women. Too often the conversation (or possibly just the conversation that I hear) is "here's how straight men need to change to be more beneficial and acceptable to women and receptive to their needs." Just as women shouldn't have to define themselves by how they relate to men, men shouldn't have to define themselves on how they relate to women.

I think it's important to consider the context, toxic masculinity hurts men but in many ways its overriding target is women. They're the ones raped because of it, abused because of it, murdered because of it, and so on.

Thus when people frame positive masculinity as an alternative to toxic masculinity they're often reacting to that reality and thus trying to create a version of masculinity that doesn't fuck over 50% of the population.

And honestly I have trouble imagining a realistic conception of masculinity that's good for women that isn't also equally good for men. It's not like having healthier outlets for emotions or avoiding escalatory behavior is a bad thing to have, the kind of benign mental state that would make women safer also happens to be pretty great to have in-general.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#21249: Feb 15th 2023 at 4:18:32 PM

Considering that men are overwhelmingly the victims of violent crime and so much violent crime having routes in toxic masculinity (that’s before we factor in war, death by toxic-masculinity induced misadventure and hate crimes target at men who aren’t gender-traditionalist (especially gay men)) I’m not certain women are the primary victims of toxic masculinity.

It’s certainly close enough that we shouldn’t be focused purely on one group.

I have trouble imagining a realistic conception of masculinity that's good for women that isn't also equally good for men.

I agree. Which makes people being dismissive of the harm men suffer from toxic-masculinity (and thus the benefits to them from fighting it) frustrating. It’s doubly frustrating when we consider that it makes tactical sense to appeal to people enlightened self-interest to get them involved in pushing back on toxic masculinity.

Edited by Silasw on Feb 15th 2023 at 12:21:12 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
editerguy from Australia Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#21250: Feb 15th 2023 at 5:27:13 PM

Men who are not traditionally masculine also commit sexual assault and related offences.

The most obvious example is assault in gay relationships where neither party cares about traditional masculinity.

I believe so much focus on 'masculinity' obscures the insidiousness of sexual assault.

The argument that it's about 'toxic masculinity' seems overly reductive, but maybe someone can tell me what I am missing.


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