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Sexism and Men's Issues

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MOD NOTE: Please note the following part of the forum rules:

If you don't like a thread, don't post in it. Posting in a thread simply to say you don't like it, or that it's stupid, or to point out that you 'knew who made it before you even clicked on it', or to predict that it will end badly will get you warned.

The initial OP posted below covers it well enough: the premise of this thread is that men's issues exist. Don't bother posting if you don't believe there is such a thing.


Here's hoping this isn't considered too redundant. I've noticed that our existing threads about sexism tend to get bogged down in Oppression Olympics or else wildly derailed, so I thought I'd make a thread specifically to talk about discrimination issues that disproportionately affect men.

No Oppression Olympics here, okay? No saying "But that's not important because women suffer X which is worse!" And no discussing these issues purely in terms of how much better women have it. Okay? If the discussion cannot meaningfully proceed without making a comparison to male and female treatment, that's fine, but on the whole I want this thread to be about how men are harmed by society and how we can fix it. Issues like:

  • The male-only draft (in countries that have one)
  • Circumcision
  • Cavalier attitudes toward men's pain and sickness, AKA "Walk it off!"
  • The Success Myth, which defines a man's desirability by his material success. Also The Myth of Men Not Being Hot, which denies that men can be sexually attractive as male beings.
  • Sexual abuse of men.
  • Family law.
  • General attitudes that men are dangerous or untrustworthy.

I could go on making the list, but I think you get the idea.

Despite what you might have heard about feminists not caring about men, it's not true. I care about men. Patriarchy sucks for them as much as it sucks for women, in a lot of ways. So I'm putting my keyboard where my mouth is and making a thread for us to all care about men.

Also? If you're male and think of something as a men's issue, by golly that makes it a men's issue fit for inclusion in this thread. I might disagree with you as to the solution, but as a woman I'm not going to tell you you have no right to be concerned about it. No "womansplaining" here.

Edited by nombretomado on Dec 15th 2019 at 5:19:34 AM

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#21176: Jan 15th 2023 at 8:00:01 AM

I bet they don't even know how to write the actual Greek letters. All in all, it's quite συσ.

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#21177: Jan 15th 2023 at 8:15:52 AM

Well, I’m an ZEXAL Third Form Dynamax Dark Digivolved Third Gear Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Golden Spirit Energy Empowered Eye of the Azure male! Top that!

Kinda reminds me of how the terminology for wolf packs got appropriated, even though a small amount of research should tell you what those terms actually mean for wolf packs.

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
CosmosAndChaos Peach from Brazil (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: Hugging my pillow
Peach
#21178: Jan 17th 2023 at 12:11:44 AM

One more thing that actually breaks me is the belief that if a man was abused by his wife, he must have "deserved it". Or that the things that "justify" a woman beating up her husband(like the Rolling Pin of Doom trope, for example) are not "justified" if a man beats up his wife for it. No one deserves to be abused, period, no matter the gender combination.

The believe that abused men are "weak" doesn't bother me as much as believing they "deserved it".

[down]You're right. Looking from that side, it does bothers me indeed. But the belief that abused men deserved it, though?🤮

Edited by CosmosAndChaos on Jan 17th 2023 at 10:03:44 AM

"Oh, did I win?"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#21179: Jan 17th 2023 at 12:18:05 AM

The belief that abused men are "weak" does bother me. If someone is being abused, it doesn't mean they're weak.

Edited by M84 on Jan 18th 2023 at 4:19:12 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
ShadowWingLG Since: Dec, 2013
#21180: Jan 17th 2023 at 5:25:43 AM

Amber Heard hurled that insult at Johnny Depp many times when things escalated between them to the point when he decided to leave the situation rather than 'fight' she derided him for 'being a baby' and 'running away' and after he stated 'she punched him' she derided him for 'overexaggerating' and 'he wasn't punched'

Those audio tapes were horrifying to listen to.

Risa123 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#21181: Jan 17th 2023 at 5:29:18 AM

[up][up] Also, I would say that even if they were, it does not matter. NOBODY "deserves" to be abused.

coinneach from Mordor Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#21182: Jan 17th 2023 at 7:19:50 AM

[up][up]My then-wife tried that on me once*, when I walked away rather than respond to her attempts to rile me.

ONCE.

Let's see what fresh fuckwittery the dolts can contrive to torment themselves with this time.
editerguy from Australia Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#21183: Jan 17th 2023 at 5:49:03 PM

[up][up][up] Yeah and the justifications some people resort to are ridiculous. People can even get stuck in their culture war mindset where standing up for Amber Heard's physical attacks is standing up to 'misogyny'.

I think that people need to get back to basics where abuse is not excused by 'being an alpha' or by 'being a victim of misogyny', rather I really want modern discussions to focus more on how toxic relationships affect abuse victims of any stripe based on credible research, and how to best deal with it as an issue that can affect anyone.

Edited by editerguy on Jan 18th 2023 at 12:49:59 AM

Lyendith Since: Mar, 2011
#21184: Jan 20th 2023 at 12:49:50 PM

I know I tend to underestimate how far gone some of the Alpha Male© Incels are but… some of them have to be trolls and/or parodies, right? Like, Nick Adams can’t actually be a real person.

(not sure why there are two separate threads about sexism, but I guess this example is closer to the "men’s issues" part)

Edited by Lyendith on Jan 20th 2023 at 9:54:55 PM

Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#21185: Jan 20th 2023 at 12:57:11 PM

[up]If you're talking about the aussie guy, he's not really a parody, but he's not entirely sincere either. He's a clickfarmer, constantly spouting outrageous and obviously wrong shit because it gets the actual idiots to shout "f*ck yeah!", and non-insane people to type one-liners to dunk on him. It's all engagement, engagement, engagement.

Note how he included Fortnite in the stuff that "alpha males" are supposed to hate, as opposed to any other game where you go online and shoot stuff, because he knows that Fortnite is on his target audience's shitlist.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#21186: Jan 20th 2023 at 1:11:33 PM

The fact that incels are dumb doesn’t strike me as on-topic, as their sexism isn’t primarily aimed at men, it’s primarily aimed at women.

It might be one for the general sexism topic (we have three), but honestly, “here’s a dumb internet person I found, aren’t they dumb?” feels rather close to drama importing for my taste.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Lyendith Since: Mar, 2011
#21187: Jan 20th 2023 at 1:31:14 PM

Well, Thought Slime’s video is mostly about how utterly joyless and miserable that conception of "masculinity" is for men themselves, so it’s kind of on topic.

It’s just that… seeing it exaggerated like that really straddles the line between sad and hilarious.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#21188: Jan 20th 2023 at 3:08:06 PM

Nick Adams is real and he's absolutely a conservative. He's a grifter, was so when he was a politician here in Australia, and continues to be so online by spouting ridiculous rhetoric that gets extra engagement while garnering support from people who are genuinely that dumb.

dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#21189: Jan 20th 2023 at 6:21:05 PM

And my God, that guy has a weird fascination with Hooters.

We all know that TRUE ALPHA MALES cook their own food, including the wings.

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
CosmosAndChaos Peach from Brazil (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: Hugging my pillow
Peach
#21190: Jan 23rd 2023 at 5:59:24 PM

When I hear of a man getting abused by his wife or a man getting raped by a woman, I always genuinely wish the man was born a woman instead, and vice-versa, so the victim would be recognized as such and the perpetrator would be seem as the scum she is.

Seriously, sometimes I'm afraid of becoming an insane Knight Templar of men's issues.

[down][down]What about domestic violence?

Edited by CosmosAndChaos on Jan 24th 2023 at 5:52:54 PM

"Oh, did I win?"
TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#21191: Jan 23rd 2023 at 6:00:37 PM

This sounds like a you problem.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#21192: Jan 23rd 2023 at 6:44:23 PM

[up][up] I don't think you'd find many *actual* equality oriented feminist women who are any less upset by sexual assault when either it happens at female hands, it happens to a man, or both.

We don't need to be assholes to them. They're on our side.

Edit: As for domestic abuse: judging by the number of negative comments on trial related videos regarding Amber Heard and Johnny Depp directed at Heard herself, from alleged DA survivors themselves, male and female alike, I think it's fair to say they do care.

With regards to sexual assault, I can tell you that most of the hostile comments I saw towards Zoe Laverne of TikTok fame came from women and girls who were appalled by Laverne's conduct.

You wanna get angry at anybody for the double standard, get angry at the misogynistic assholes who fetishize predators and abusers.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Jan 23rd 2023 at 10:20:46 AM

editerguy from Australia Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#21193: Jan 23rd 2023 at 7:51:31 PM

[up] I disagree that the type of person applying the double standard matters.

For something like domestic violence or sexual assault, the harm is real. I don't care about the person's politics.

[up][up][up] Wish it didn't happen at all.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#21194: Jan 23rd 2023 at 7:54:30 PM

What I mean is that it usually is dirtbag misogynists who consider 11-year-old boys lucky to be molested.

CosmosAndChaos Peach from Brazil (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: Hugging my pillow
Peach
#21195: Jan 23rd 2023 at 11:00:28 PM

Okay. I'm calmer now.

"Oh, did I win?"
Murataku Don't Feed The Plant from Straya Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Don't Feed The Plant
#21196: Jan 24th 2023 at 12:45:42 PM

[up][up]Dunno about that, I've argued with people even on these forums before about whether boys and men can be abused or harassed. "Boys/men can't be abused." Seems very much a depressingly common opinion in society, from all kinds of people.

You need blood and he's got more than enough!
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#21197: Jan 24th 2023 at 12:52:57 PM

[up] When a news story comes out about a female teacher molesting a male student, there's generally at least some men who are like "lucky!" because the only context they have is "that kid got laid" and it doesn't occur to them that it's actually a super fucked up situation.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#21198: Jan 24th 2023 at 1:06:48 PM

I have found some woman here and there with less sympathetic responses but that it, most of the time is the "nice" meme

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#21199: Jan 24th 2023 at 1:31:07 PM

It's a by-product of toxic masculinity.

Because "being a man" involves always being dominant and A Man Is Always Eager, some people dismiss the harm done to boys/men because that's not what "should happen". The reality of course is that men can be just as vulnerable to said harm.

This is also complementary with women's issues since at the end of the day what is often called "a man" has to be in a position of power all the time and lord said power, so both women and men who don't fit into this standard suffer.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
Murataku Don't Feed The Plant from Straya Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Don't Feed The Plant
#21200: Jan 24th 2023 at 1:57:21 PM

I've gotta say I've never quite understood how, for example, a woman saying "Men can't be abused!" would come under Toxic Masculinity.

While it's a useful term in some contexts, in others it feels a somewhat victim-blamey way of describing how society treats men.

You need blood and he's got more than enough!

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