Sexism and Men's Issues

Late, but the whole "-ism only counts if it's systemic" is a pernicious abuse of academic terminology in order to downplay and marginalize and has been for years. For the sake of remaining in good faith and not getting caught up in semantics let's not go back to those kinds of arguments that resulted in the above mod pin, and settle with the idea that while privileged groups do not suffer from systemic -isms the way others do, -isms are broad enough to include all forms of discrimination that can be perpetrated against any member of any group.

Also, I think the claim that men don't suffer from systematic sexism is false, because even though men are generally privileged both de jure and de facto, there are definitely laws out there that explicitly discriminate against men as a category and no amount of rationalizing why will change that fact. For example, a lot of child custody and alimony laws, and a lot of rape laws exclude male victims, especially when the rapist is female. Those are absolutely systemic in nature. Sexism is not a zero-sum game, and even separate-sphere gender roles like the kind espoused by Difference Feminists will privilege those who follow them closely and punish those who don't with systemic discrimination regardless of gender.

You have clearly been in enough internet arguments that I assume you would've done better than the trot out the most stock defense popularly used by openly bad-faith, proud misandrists to devalue any discrimination men face, by attempting to pass it off as a zero-sum game and appeal to worse problems. Regardless of whether or not it originated due to misogynist thinking doesn't make it not legal discrimination now that women can work.

Also, you're clearly in violation of this bit:

Edited by AlleyOop on Feb 15th 2020 at 11:59:29 AM

I want to said something that sometimes the reason if intentions of something matter very little with the efects of the thing.

like the draft: in theory is hold because it seen as male as only worth of drafting, in pratice it means males who wanted or not are part of it and see as expendable and the idea of male as expendable is still pretty much a thing on gender thinking: is easy to see two men fight, most weird see a woman doing or even worst, a woman fighting against a men without getting unconfortable.

or to bring heard case here: aparently she fully expect everyone to believe her over deep because the idea that woman are the weaker sex in general and she use that to the her advantage, and we see this play worst in other cases one stuff like race come into it.

Edited by unknowing on Feb 15th 2020 at 1:00:19 PM

While I can understand the importance of distinguishing systemic "isms" from others, acting as if those are the only valid forms has always struck me as semantics and wanting to downplay the fact that even people in traditionally not marginalizes groups can face issues worth discussing.

I don't really see the point of it if your genuinely trying to discuss in good faith.

Dude... Read what I said, would you?

I'm not excusing a bias because it's based in a previous bias, I'm pointing out that a specific statistical distribution is the result of practical reality rather than bias.

More women get custody of their kids in a divorce because, even today, statistically more women than men quit working to take care of their kids when one of the two partners has to stop working. It doesn't matter whether they can work, that matters is that they stopped working to take care of the kids prior to the divorce and are therefore both the parent with the most experience taking care of the kids and the parent that the kids are used to having take care of them and the court weighs both of those factors as part of their assessment of what's better for the welfare of the kids.

So besides about semantics of isms and what counts...

I'm kinda curious about Johnny Depp situation .-. back when scandal started, opinions shifted to him being pretty much a monster, but are people as willing to backtrack?

Like I'm kinda confused about how this "Court of public opinion" goes, do people overall just immediately shift to other end or is there like long process of people processing it? I'd think after latest development I'd be on side it being mutually abusive relationships if not for the whole "They'd never believe you" recording because holy shit thats bad

There is also question of how fast these kind of news spread? Like it was news to me that there has been evidence of Heard being abusive for really long time by now ._.;

Edited by SpookyMask on Feb 15th 2020 at 9:39:27 PM

Not super likely, in part due to entrenched social opinions, also in part due to the fact he apparently was a crappy partner during previous relationships of his. I am hoping it will lead some people to retract the utter bile they spewed at Paul Bettany for the crime of saying maybe people should think it over a bit before going after Depp, because to his knowledge he didn't know him as an abuser towards Heard.

Edited by AlleyOop on Feb 16th 2020 at 1:23:05 PM

Just gonna use this as a placeholder post to call the mods in on what I missed.

For the record, I wouldn't be opposed to changing the name of the thread, not because sexism against men isn't a thing but just to better match the women's issues thread title.

I think that both "women's issues" and "men's issues" heavily imply sexism, so it's a bit redundant to put it in the title of either.

Plus, we also have the general sexism thread.

To clarify, are we being told to drop the subject?

In a similar vein to the Amber Heard case comes that of the British TV personality Caroline Flack, who committed suicide recently. For those who haven't followed the case, she took her own life before she could be evaluated for child custody following an incident where she beat her sleeping boyfriend with a lamp, leading him to believe she was trying to kill him.

After her death, news outlets have flipped to suddenly supporting her 100%, including some tabloids such as The Sun deleting previous mocking articles about her. Supporters of Flack are blaming the media for her death, Meanwhile, a counter-backlash has emerged of people claiming that a man who committed suicide pending trial for similar crimes against a woman wouldn't receive similar sympathy.

Reading some of the online reactions to her death, they are more than a little disturbing. I've seen tweets along the lines of "Who doesn't overreact sometimes when their boyfriend messes up? She didn't deserve the hatred from the tabloids." Reminder: she beat her sleeping boyfriend with a lamp to the point he thought she wanted to kill him, leading to the bed becoming "bloodsoaked" according to police.

Even seen people acting as if it's the victims' fault for speaking at all.

As someone who has been suicidal before, I appreciate any type of voice aimed towards mental health, but committing suicide doesn't change who you were in life.

There's a bunch of memes that now that there's taped confession of her saying she really did slice off two of his fingers, hit him constantly, threatened to tell people he hit her [with the implication he didn't], calling him out as a expletitive for NOT hitting her when she hit him, and defacting on his bed—the memes say that lots of people are just pretending they never dogpiled him.

Some even suggesting that they're just pretending the tapes don't exist.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Feb 16th 2020 at 7:52:07 AM

Yeah, the case of Depp and Heard is unique because of those taped therapy sessions. They basically turned it from a he-said-she-said kind of case into one where it's impossible to deny that Heard was the primary abuser and knew it. It's almost unheard-of for a case of abuse to have such clear and damning evidence, directly from the horse's mouth, so it can't be ignored like earlier evidence against her.

It sadly refutes the movie trope of Engineered Public Confession because a lot of people just ignore it.

On the other hand, Mera is out of Aquaman and Dolphin is in.

I don't see Johnny Depp's career getting much of its boost back, though.

I'm sad because I really liked Mera as a character.

But I'm pleased because, after everything I've heard in this discussion, f*ck Amber Heard. Real people are more important than fake people.

Where did you hear that?

Rapper Boosie Badass admits to allowing adult women perform sexual acts on his son and nephews.

Warning, the article contains description of sexual acts performed on minors so be careful.

I've gotten to thinking lately how America seems more okay with pedophilia than likes to let on. Oh sure, we publicly decry it for how foul it is, but when you look closer we have child sex rings that multiple high-profile people are in on and a father having oral sex done to his son and nephew.

Is anyone talking about this?

It has been talked about but certain circles of people, mainly people more on the conservative side of things, refuse to talk about it or just use it as a shield for their own shitty agendas.

It's rather frustrating too as boys that are victims of female pedophiles tend to be completely ignored by American society. It is extremely common to see shitty men congratulating minors for getting some from a female pedo or wishing they could of had that themselves despite how damaging that can be.

I know from my own experiences of being sexually assaulted by a few girls and a gay guy in my teenage years that I felt like just a piece of meat to people in general. I wouldn't even want to imagine if I was taken advantage of by a teacher or some woman far older than me at that time.

I suspect that this has been going on for a long time but now #MeToo is bringing to light the culture of sexual abuse and it's turning out that it extended to people of any age and hits people of any age.

I am so sorry that happened to you.

I remember reading a tweet recently, that says that there are now 3 states in US that bans child marriage and the author of the tweet asks what the hell happening in other 47 states.

Edited by VeryVileVillian on May 14th 2020 at 2:39:35 PM

10 of them have the age (under certain conditions) at 17 and 20 of them have it at 16 (again under certain conditions). Another 4 have it conditionally at 15 and 2 more have it conditionally at 14.

So while it’s technically child marriage it’s not what people think of when you say child marriage.

It’s not the 47 states with ages under 18 that worry me, it’s the 12 where a person can be married at any age that worry me.

As an Asian, I also agree that the world does indeed more tolerant to pedophilia than it seems. I'm not going to touch on how "prevalent" lolicon here and the "lolicon isn't pedophilia" crap which is a much more disturbing level of shit compared to "liking trap isn't gay" crap.

Let's focus on my country, Indonesia, where child marriage (whether it's between two underage persons or one of the couple is an adult) is more acceptable than being gay or even BDSM because reasons. If that isn't a good enough proof, I don't know what is. It's one of the form that traditional views on gender roles manifest where power and wealth are the most important trait for a man to have (which older men tend to have) and looks and fertility are the most important trait for a woman to have (which younger women tend to have). There is a reason this shit always happened between older men and younger women and not the reverse.