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Sexism and Men's Issues

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MOD NOTE: Please note the following part of the forum rules:

If you don't like a thread, don't post in it. Posting in a thread simply to say you don't like it, or that it's stupid, or to point out that you 'knew who made it before you even clicked on it', or to predict that it will end badly will get you warned.

The initial OP posted below covers it well enough: the premise of this thread is that men's issues exist. Don't bother posting if you don't believe there is such a thing.


Here's hoping this isn't considered too redundant. I've noticed that our existing threads about sexism tend to get bogged down in Oppression Olympics or else wildly derailed, so I thought I'd make a thread specifically to talk about discrimination issues that disproportionately affect men.

No Oppression Olympics here, okay? No saying "But that's not important because women suffer X which is worse!" And no discussing these issues purely in terms of how much better women have it. Okay? If the discussion cannot meaningfully proceed without making a comparison to male and female treatment, that's fine, but on the whole I want this thread to be about how men are harmed by society and how we can fix it. Issues like:

  • The male-only draft (in countries that have one)
  • Circumcision
  • Cavalier attitudes toward men's pain and sickness, AKA "Walk it off!"
  • The Success Myth, which defines a man's desirability by his material success. Also The Myth of Men Not Being Hot, which denies that men can be sexually attractive as male beings.
  • Sexual abuse of men.
  • Family law.
  • General attitudes that men are dangerous or untrustworthy.

I could go on making the list, but I think you get the idea.

Despite what you might have heard about feminists not caring about men, it's not true. I care about men. Patriarchy sucks for them as much as it sucks for women, in a lot of ways. So I'm putting my keyboard where my mouth is and making a thread for us to all care about men.

Also? If you're male and think of something as a men's issue, by golly that makes it a men's issue fit for inclusion in this thread. I might disagree with you as to the solution, but as a woman I'm not going to tell you you have no right to be concerned about it. No "womansplaining" here.

Edited by nombretomado on Dec 15th 2019 at 5:19:34 AM

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#17701: Sep 1st 2016 at 11:25:44 AM

After seeing Avada Kedavra being abbreviated so often all I can think about is how easily the series would have been solved if someone had an AK. Like the assault rifle.

This kinda shit would never have happened in America.

Oh really when?
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#17702: Sep 1st 2016 at 11:26:32 AM

American wizards would be using, like, phoenix-core M16s and shit.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#17703: Sep 1st 2016 at 11:30:48 AM

[up][up] You mean another Wizard named Harry?

edited 1st Sep '16 11:31:27 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#17704: Sep 1st 2016 at 11:53:00 AM

[up][up]For some reason I imagine a magical NSA talking if the public should be use unforgiven curse.

"a good thing was a small number of people in the fandom that complained about the character being whiny early on (despite having a good reason to not be happy with his situation)."

Ahhhh the Shinji syndrome, yeah the whole "this chararter is whnny and pathetic, making a damn badass already", in fact the reason I enter this forum in the first place is because I was fed up with all the reviews of Mirai Mikki repeating the same point of "Yuki is pussy and whinner","He should just fuck Yuno and love her because she is cute and crazy"(they forget the manga desconstruct Yandere concept) or my favorite of all "Yukki should be the girl and Yuno the man" UGHHHHHHHH, that shit is EVERYWHERE in the latine anime fandom, EVERYWHERE.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#17705: Sep 1st 2016 at 1:19:32 PM

An Avautomat Kedashnikova 47 that cast infinite bullets.

Always bring a gun to a wand fight.

Inter arma enim silent leges
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#17706: Sep 1st 2016 at 1:27:41 PM

Maybe rig up some ammo or explosives that can actively hinder the target's ability to use magic.

Or just snipe the target from the other side of the city, valley, whatever have you.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#17707: Sep 1st 2016 at 2:38:41 PM

Guys this is the Men's Issues thread, not the "so wouldn't modern military weapons totally kill everyone in the Harry Potter universe?" thread. tongue

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#17708: Sep 1st 2016 at 3:12:27 PM

Lord knows that's a topic I despise...

Oh God! Natural light!
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#17709: Sep 1st 2016 at 3:18:36 PM

I am sure we can make turn stories about a bunch of men waving their wands at each other trying to show who has the strongest and biggest wand and discussions how real arms beat wands into something related to men's issues. [lol]

Inter arma enim silent leges
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#17710: Sep 1st 2016 at 3:34:10 PM

Sports cars. Why.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#17711: Sep 1st 2016 at 5:35:38 PM

They have a lot of power. Power is masculine.

They're technologically complex machines. Technology is masculine.

They're sporty. Sport is masculine.

Check out my fanfiction!
InAnOdderWay Since: Nov, 2013
#17712: Sep 1st 2016 at 6:02:33 PM

See this is why we need to see the wizarding world of modern America. This is probably a common sentiment over there, along the lines of "we saved Europe during WWI and WWII" and "America is the only country with real freedom". And there are probably a lot of frustrated history teachers who take a long groan every time some upstart student thinks they're being clever by bringing it up.

...what were we talking about?

Oh yeah, parenthood. Absentee parents is a trope in children's media. I wouldn't say that it's a trope that intentionally diminishes the role of fatherhood (not nearly in the same way of sitcoms), but rather akin to Dosney parent deaths: it serves to isolate the protagonists from any permanent bounds that would keep them from adventure.

Similarly, Goku's a shitty parent because parenthood would tie Goku down to responsibility and adulthood and things not very interesting for a show about punching and kicking. It's a big reason why Gohan sort of fades into the background later on, his responsibilities make it hard to write him into the action realistically. The action has to find him.

Even mothers tend to, when they aren't dying, stay back at home in the background. They for some reason or another need to be okay with their kids leaving, which you could try to explain through any number of sexist tropes, though I'll give writers the benefit of the doubt here.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#17713: Sep 2nd 2016 at 12:24:28 AM

" things not very interesting for a show about punching and kicking"

I beg to differ. See ATLA, ATLOK, Lone Wolf And Cub...

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Ecrivan Amused Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Amused
#17714: Sep 2nd 2016 at 4:23:58 AM

I grew to dislike Dragon Ball Z over the years due to various reasons. The really badly potrayed relationships was just one of them.

Don't even get me started on that bullshit regarding Vegeta and Bulma. Girls like bad boys my ass Vegeta is a flipping murderer and has likely committed genocide on alien races before. He killed Yamcha no less.

The relationships now that I think about it were just badly written in general. The only ones that I saw that worked were Krillin and 18, Gohan and Videl, and Piccolo and Gohan (father to son relationship).

Formerly known as Bleddyn And I am feeling like a ghost Resident Perky Goth
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#17715: Sep 2nd 2016 at 7:48:08 AM

Don't even get me started on that bullshit regarding Vegeta and Bulma. Girls like bad boys my ass Vegeta is a flipping murderer and has likely committed genocide on alien races before. He killed Yamcha no less.

  • Yamcha: HE'S THE REASON I'M DEAD!!!
  • Bulma: Then I guess he's just more of a man than you are.
  • ~Dragon Ball Z Abridged

DBZ is an interesting case because there are two very dedicated fandoms bitterly feuding over whether Vegeta or Yamcha deserved to "win" Bulma. The Yamcha fandom likes to bring up the fact that Vegeta's a genocidal monster. The Vegeta fandom likes to bring up the fact that Yamcha's a memetic loser living who cheated on Bulma despite living on her money.

But nobody really cares about the fact that Bulma herself is a pretty shitty human being too. Well, except when Yamcha fans want a talking point about how she abused him as a consolatory "My beloved Yamcha's too good for her anyway!" shtick. Ultimately, Bulma's personality never even enters the discussion, because neither side really sees her as anything more than the rope in the tug-of-war.

Most of the characters in Dragon Ball are pretty awful people and Bulma's no exception. One of the first things she ever did in the show was attempt to sexually manipulate a 12-year-old, who she did manage to coerce into being her "Muscle" as she embarked on a mission to abuse world-shattering reality-warping superpowers into crafting a perfect boyfriend for her.

In sharp contrast to how a lot of romantic subplots usually go, her relationship with Yamcha was never happy, with the characters constantly reviling each other every moment they were onscreen for its duration - and with Bulma actively regretting that she didn't pick Goku instead. It was heavily depicted as an ill-conceived "teenagers' first romance" that made both participants thoroughly miserable.

And eventually they moved on. Bulma hooked up with Vegeta who, yes, was directly responsible for Yamcha's first death, but Bulma is a shallow, self-centered asshole for whom at least half her social circle consists of murderers and assholes so there's that. Yamcha fans took this as a sleight against their manhood and never got over it, and even when Yamcha explicitly mentions that he found a new girlfriend, the arguments to this day still like to bring up, "Yamcha was doomed to be alone and unloved FOREVER by Bulma's dumb bitch decision to hook up with his murderer!" as a talking point.

Ultimately, Yamcha's fandom has been an amazing case study in romantic entitlement as it applies to fictional characters. Yamcha's popularity is not uncommon. In a weird inversion of This Loser Is You, characters - especially in anime - who are depicted as perpetual losers that constantly fail at everything have a tendency to develop a huge and profound fandom and, with Yamcha's, it's actually interesting how many people push the idea that Yamcha deserves Bulma, even among those that despise Bulma.

edited 2nd Sep '16 7:51:40 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
InAnOdderWay Since: Nov, 2013
#17716: Sep 2nd 2016 at 7:52:30 AM

Yeah DBZ isn't a show about superheroes, it's a show about fighters. The characters aren't really good people, but they were never really intended to be good people.

Also Avatar is in no way a punching and kicking series and even it follows those tropes to a T. Every member of the Gaaang either has dead parents, asshole parents, or background parents. Korra subverts this a bit better, but I do mean a bit.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#17717: Sep 2nd 2016 at 7:57:16 AM

I should also add that the creators themselves are divided about Yamcha and Bulma's relationship.

During the Red Ribbon arc, the manga depicted Bulma as being frustrated with Yamcha's popularity with girls. It's implied that Bulma suspects him of cheating, but nothing ever comes of it. She leaves with Goku to do some plot while Yamcha never even makes an appearance until the next tournament arc.

Toei, the company that produced the anime, turned this into a filler arc about how Yamcha is an innocent victim of Bulma's suspicions. It depicted Bulma as physically abusing Yamcha over innocent misunderstandings because bitches, amirite?

Later, manga author Akira Toriyama answered questions about why Bulma would leave Yamcha with, "Because Yamcha's a cheater."

edited 2nd Sep '16 7:57:55 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#17718: Sep 2nd 2016 at 11:32:52 AM

[up][up]Gohan and Trunks were totally good people.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Ecrivan Amused Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Amused
#17719: Sep 2nd 2016 at 12:34:58 PM

I will admit I am biased in a sense as I never liked Vegeta from the start. He always came off as a humongous asshole to me even when I was younger.

I did know that Bulma was pretty damn detestable though. I have seen some clips of the original Dragon Ball so I am aware of what happened their to a certain degree. What didn't help the Yamcha Bulma thing was if I recall correctly Yamcha at the start was actually very shy near girls in general which some people can identify with.

Formerly known as Bleddyn And I am feeling like a ghost Resident Perky Goth
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#17720: Sep 2nd 2016 at 3:12:12 PM

It's true. Right off the bat, Yamcha's Fatal Flaw was that he wasn't just shy, he was openly gynophobic. He would scream and run away if he caught sight of Bulma. He wanted to help them gather the Dragon Balls so he could steal them and wish away his fear of women.

When the first arc ended, both Bulma and Yamcha were deprived of their silly wishes so they just decided, "F*ck it" and decided to be a couple. Yamcha's gynophobia spontaneously ceased to exist and was never brought up again, and the two lived miserably ever after until Bulma hooked up with Vegeta instead.

Akira Toriyama has never been great at writing romance, and his earliest characters were meant to be comedically exaggerated sociopaths. As the series progressed, the "comedic" aspect started to decline as Cerebus Syndrome set in, but the series continued to build a cast out of murderers and thugs united solely by a love of having their faces broken by Goku.

Ultimately, Yamcha does stand out as one of the less-sinister protagonists, but only because he's merely a bandit who used to rob and/or murder travelers including children and cheats on his girlfriend, rather than an assassin, genocidal real estate agent, or literally Satan.

edited 2nd Sep '16 3:15:07 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#17721: Sep 2nd 2016 at 3:59:08 PM

"Yeah DBZ isn't a show about superheroes, it's a show about fighters. The characters aren't really good people, but they were never really intended to be good people. "

they sort of are, I mean there is three arc about them protecting the universe for evil and their fhappy-fight nature wasnt pronunced as before, that is why I think battle of gods was a bad idea since return to that chararterization.

" I never liked Vegeta from the start. He always came off as a humongous asshole to me even when I was younger."

I think he is a intersting chararter but I cringe everything latin american fans always said shinji,yukki and kaneki are "Pussy" and workship Vegeta for being such a hardass, because he is EVEN whinner that any of them.

" only because he's merely a bandit who used to rob and/or murder travelers including children and cheats on his girlfriend"

I dont think he plan to murder, just to leave people after he rob them, remenber that DB intense violence happen away latter.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#17722: Sep 2nd 2016 at 4:05:43 PM

Yamcha attempts to murder a 12-year-old to get his stuff. That's pretty unambiguous.

But again, utterly pales in comparison to Piccolo, Vegeta, or even Tenshinhan's role model, the assassin Taopaipai.

Also, thinking Vegeta's an asshole isn't a controversial opinion, really. <.< You're not supposed to like Vegeta. Like, at any point. Part of the reason the other characters fell out of fighting once Vegeta joined the cast is because the main role of non-Goku characters in combat is to get the shit beat out of them until they're a broken, humiliated mess on the ground.

Once Vegeta joined the fray, he took over the duty of getting whomped by enemies full-time. Because watching Vegeta get broken into a sobbing mess on the ground is just more enjoyable than seeing it happen to Yamcha, Tenshinhan, or Krillin. Because we like those characters. Vegeta's role is to be a punching bag so the others - especially Yamcha, who was previously designated as the full-time punching bag - don't have to suffer anymore.

edited 2nd Sep '16 4:06:17 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#17723: Sep 2nd 2016 at 4:55:30 PM

I prefer when Vegeta suffers a more psychological torment:

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#17724: Sep 2nd 2016 at 5:15:10 PM

So guys, how about those men's issues?

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#17725: Sep 2nd 2016 at 5:37:18 PM

Well, the men in DBZ have issues.

Check out my fanfiction!

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