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MOD NOTE: Please note the following part of the forum rules:

If you don't like a thread, don't post in it. Posting in a thread simply to say you don't like it, or that it's stupid, or to point out that you 'knew who made it before you even clicked on it', or to predict that it will end badly will get you warned.

The initial OP posted below covers it well enough: the premise of this thread is that men's issues exist. Don't bother posting if you don't believe there is such a thing.


Here's hoping this isn't considered too redundant. I've noticed that our existing threads about sexism tend to get bogged down in Oppression Olympics or else wildly derailed, so I thought I'd make a thread specifically to talk about discrimination issues that disproportionately affect men.

No Oppression Olympics here, okay? No saying "But that's not important because women suffer X which is worse!" And no discussing these issues purely in terms of how much better women have it. Okay? If the discussion cannot meaningfully proceed without making a comparison to male and female treatment, that's fine, but on the whole I want this thread to be about how men are harmed by society and how we can fix it. Issues like:

  • The male-only draft (in countries that have one)
  • Circumcision
  • Cavalier attitudes toward men's pain and sickness, AKA "Walk it off!"
  • The Success Myth, which defines a man's desirability by his material success. Also The Myth of Men Not Being Hot, which denies that men can be sexually attractive as male beings.
  • Sexual abuse of men.
  • Family law.
  • General attitudes that men are dangerous or untrustworthy.

I could go on making the list, but I think you get the idea.

Despite what you might have heard about feminists not caring about men, it's not true. I care about men. Patriarchy sucks for them as much as it sucks for women, in a lot of ways. So I'm putting my keyboard where my mouth is and making a thread for us to all care about men.

Also? If you're male and think of something as a men's issue, by golly that makes it a men's issue fit for inclusion in this thread. I might disagree with you as to the solution, but as a woman I'm not going to tell you you have no right to be concerned about it. No "womansplaining" here.

Edited by nombretomado on Dec 15th 2019 at 5:19:34 AM

Teraus Awesome Lightning Mantra from The Origin of Dreams Since: Jul, 2011
Awesome Lightning Mantra
#8151: Dec 25th 2013 at 12:00:21 PM

[up]No, I provided several other links. And the youtube video isn't even about rape allegations.

When approximately 3% of rapes result in the conviction of a perpetrator, yet only 8% are provably false, that leaves an incredibly large grey area of rapes that nothing is ever done with.

Alleged rapes*

You are shifting the burden of proof. Again. You shouldn't say they are rapes until they are proven to be, you just assume they are.

And yes, that sucks. But, as I said before, it has nothing to do with sexism or rape culture. It's a limitation of forensic technology.

It's especially troublesome when you consider the attempts by some feminists do redefine consensual sex as only legitimate when there is "enthusiastic consent", and other fuzzy, unreliable concepts. It's also troublesome when, in some circles, rape is only considered when it is done by penetration. In some places, it is considered rape when a man has sex with a drunk woman, but not rape when a woman has sex with a drunk man. Under these scenarios, you will obviously find a lot more female victims and male perpetrators.

edited 25th Dec '13 12:09:55 PM by Teraus

"You cannot judge a system if your judgement is determined by the system."
Besserwisser from Planet of Hats Since: Dec, 2009
#8152: Dec 25th 2013 at 12:10:45 PM

I've heard the claim that conviction rates of rape are actually in line with other crimes while false allegations are higher than normal if measured the same way. And I don't see the conflict of interest between wanting rapists to be prosecuted and deal with false allegations, unless you want to remove the presumption of innocence from rape cases, which is the only thing I can think of resulting in more rapists being convicted and more problems with false allegations.

Teraus Awesome Lightning Mantra from The Origin of Dreams Since: Jul, 2011
Awesome Lightning Mantra
#8153: Dec 25th 2013 at 12:16:16 PM

My point exactly. You shouldn't touch presumption of innocence, yet people are constantly pushing for a reversal of the burden of proof only in the case of rape. A non-convicted man that was accused of rape is, in the eyes of people, a "rapist who walked free", not a person that was not found guilty due to insufficient evidence.

"You cannot judge a system if your judgement is determined by the system."
Mandemo Since: Apr, 2010
#8154: Dec 25th 2013 at 12:28:28 PM

Problem is the definition what is consented sex and what is not. Not to mention Doouble Standard in this regards.

"Women give consent, men are consenting." Men are automatically assumed to consent, no matter what. Only in extreme cases are these written as non-consent.

Now, the thing is, a woman can get drunk and still have consented sex, but later claim that she did not give consent. It's mans word against womans. Both could have been equally drunk and equally consenting, but the moment woman says "I didn't consent", mans word is meaningless.

If a man came, in similar situation to claim a rape, he would be laughed out.

This screws the statistics. In many cases, it's hard to say when the women actually didn't give consent, thanks to modern day attitude. Women can, retroactively, change their consent and unless the man has some sort of recording of the act, he really can't prove himself innocent.

Funnily enough, when to comes to a rape, men needs to prove his innocence. He is assumed guilty until proven otherwise. This is reversal of how modern justice system works (or at least does in western world)

edited 25th Dec '13 12:29:46 PM by Mandemo

Besserwisser from Planet of Hats Since: Dec, 2009
#8155: Dec 25th 2013 at 12:33:52 PM

[up] One interesting thing I just thought about while reading your post, in this case the woman is actually the active participant. As a victim at least, it's the woman who acts by giving consent while the man is assumed to have given consent. I don't have much more to talk about that, just something to think about.

Mandemo Since: Apr, 2010
#8156: Dec 25th 2013 at 1:15:11 PM

[up]It's actually interesting inversion of Men Act, Women Are, that in this case, it's women who act(Give consent) and men are (are assumed consent)

Teraus Awesome Lightning Mantra from The Origin of Dreams Since: Jul, 2011
Awesome Lightning Mantra
#8157: Dec 25th 2013 at 1:19:24 PM

[up] I wouldn't really say it's an inversion. In people's minds, men can only be agents, not acted upon. They are responsible for what happens to them and others. Women, on the other hand, are not responsible for what happen to them. If you suggest that a woman can do X to reduce the probability of being raped, you will be told that this is "victim blaming" and that it's men who need to learn "not to rape", as if rapists are just idiots who don't understand consent and any man is capable of being one.

Relevant: http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/activism/memewalk-quit-blaming-kids/

edited 25th Dec '13 3:23:11 PM by Teraus

"You cannot judge a system if your judgement is determined by the system."
Mandemo Since: Apr, 2010
#8158: Dec 25th 2013 at 1:41:46 PM

Yes, that is one problem I have with modern feminism. It is attempting to remove responsibility from the women. Yes, rape is bad, yes, ones who do it should be punished... but at the same time, you can't just keep saying "I should not need fear". As if that makes everything women do acceptable and any negative outcomes fault of the society for not being there to prevent it.

Yeah, nobody should fear for their live or anything. Does not mean world will twist to accommodate you. You can reduce the risk, you can prepare for it. Does not mean we are "blaming" victims, just noting a ways to reduce how said event can happen again.

I mean, if each time an air plane crashed, instead of studying what went wrong, why it went wrong and how to prevent it happening again, we would go "Don't blame the victims for dying in the crash!"? We would go "Teach the pilots not to crash!".

I also hate how modern feminism is out to make men into this unthinking brute, who needs to be taught by "enlightened" women (Not the words used, but there is a strong subtext for this) tp not to do bad things. That if no-one "teaches" them, men will automatically rape and oppress every woman they meet.

edited 25th Dec '13 1:43:34 PM by Mandemo

Besserwisser from Planet of Hats Since: Dec, 2009
#8159: Dec 25th 2013 at 2:32:42 PM

There's also the argument that the narrative of rapists being normal men making mistakes leads to fewer rape reports because male rapists say the exact same thing to keep women from reporting due to sympathy.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#8160: Dec 25th 2013 at 2:35:14 PM

[[the low conviction rate] has nothing to do with sexism or rape culture.

I wouldn't be sure of that. (All following questions are real questions) Isn't much of the physical evidence of rape only present for a certain amount of time after the incident? Thus would the rate of conviction for cases of rape not be much higher if victims went to the authorities earlier? Isn't one of the big things that prevents people reporting rapes strait away the fact that they are either made to believes it is their own fault, that it wasn't rape because they did X (with X being a thing that part of society takes to mean consent when it doesn't, like drinking with someone or going out with them) or that they will not be believed/get in trouble?

Edit: [up] That goes both ways though, you'll get rapists who aren't considered rapists because the person who was raped has an emotional attachment to the rapist and doesn't want to think of them as an irredeemable monster.

edited 25th Dec '13 2:36:57 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Besserwisser from Planet of Hats Since: Dec, 2009
#8161: Dec 25th 2013 at 2:51:51 PM

I wouldn't be sure of that. (All following questions are real questions) Isn't much of the physical evidence of rape only present for a certain amount of time after the incident? Thus would the rate of conviction for cases of rape not be much higher if victims went to the authorities earlier? Isn't one of the big things that prevents people reporting rapes strait away the fact that they are either made to believes it is their own fault, that it wasn't rape because they did X (with X being a thing that part of society takes to mean consent when it doesn't, like drinking with someone or going out with them) or that they will not be believed/get in trouble?

Those are interesting question but considering rape has a conviction rate comparable with other crimes there doesn't seem to be a massive problem with punishing reported rapists in the first place. The biggest problem seems to be underreporting where the article also points out how stating lower rates of conviction has a negative impact as well.

That goes both ways though, you'll get rapists who aren't considered rapists because the person who was raped has an emotional attachment to the rapist and doesn't want to think of them as an irredeemable monster.

I don't really see how this contradicts or adds to my argument.

Morven Nemesis from Seattle, WA, USA Since: Jan, 2001
Nemesis
#8162: Dec 25th 2013 at 3:11:24 PM

I think that people tend to compare rape to murder, which has a much higher proportion of cases prosecuted. Murder has a clearance rate of about 70% in the US; that's the proportion of murders the police consider solved, though not all of those go to trial and obviously not all get convicted. Not all are first-degree murder of course.

That reflects a couple of things; firstly, of course, that society in general considers murder the most serious offense. So it gets more resources to solve it. But it's a much easier crime to prove.

A brighter future for a darker age.
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#8163: Dec 26th 2013 at 3:18:36 AM

Yes, that is one problem I have with modern feminism. It is attempting to remove responsibility from the women.
Bull puckey.
Yes, rape is bad, yes, ones who do it should be punished... but at the same time, you can't just keep saying "I should not need fear".
"Safe spaces should exist" is not the same as saying "I should not need fear". There ought to be places where you're not afraid of rape. That goes without saying.

Simply put, if you want to prevent rape, you need to deliver to the rapist the clear message of "you will not escape consequences". Not "this potential victim is assertive and capable and well-protected, look for someone else". Too much anti rape advice is just signaling to rapists to find someone less self-confident, less sober, or further away from their friends.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
Besserwisser from Planet of Hats Since: Dec, 2009
#8164: Dec 26th 2013 at 3:49:42 AM

"Safe spaces should exist" is not the same as saying "I should not need fear". There ought to be places where you're not afraid of rape. That goes without saying.

You're not addressing the argument that was made. I've heard numerous time of the fear of women to go outside or of something else as justification for feminism. Not the actual risk they're under, which is higher for men in this instance, but the fear of people who might not even have been victims themselves.

Simply put, if you want to prevent rape, you need to deliver to the rapist the clear message of "you will not escape consequences". Not "this potential victim is assertive and capable and well-protected, look for someone else". Too much anti rape advice is just signaling to rapists to find someone less self-confident, less sober, or further away from their friends.

Oh yeah, the "if you try to protect yourself you're just making sure annother woman is raped" argument. Considering that from a feminist perspective any men will rape given the opportunity, don't you think a few rapes would actually be prevented instead of happening to annother person if you don't give them that opportunity? It's not like rapists have to fulfill a quota.

RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#8165: Dec 26th 2013 at 4:07:54 AM

Not the actual risk they're under, which is higher for men in this instance, but the fear of people who might not even have been victims themselves.
One, for which men? Not all men are at equal odds of assault; I'd wager it's a very bimodal distribution.

Two, if you're arguing that women are being trained to be fearful, I think there's a lot to that argument, but it's not exactly one that feminists will have a prima facie problem with.

Three, you may have noted that I used and am continuing to use gender-neutral language when discussing rape. There's a reason for that.

feminist perspective any men will rape given the opportunity
Also bull puckey. A feminist perspective that assumes that is full of shit. An evidence-based feminist perspective will take into account that most rapes are committed by a few repeat offenders who rely on social cover, often with the aid of alcohol or authority, to strike again and again. These are people who are methodical about identifying and attacking the most vulnerable targets. Rape is about power and predators seek power differentials.
don't you think a few rapes would actually be prevented instead of happening to annother person if you don't give them that opportunity
Again, predators will seek power differentials and work best with social cover. If you do not give rapists safe space, you are protecting yourself and everyone else. It is simply a better use of one's resources.

Also, men's right activists benefit strategically if they take it upon themselves to create rape-free spaces. It helps counteract the image problem the movement faces, especially after some spectacular own goals. Don't settle for preventing just a few rapes.

edited 26th Dec '13 4:21:01 AM by RadicalTaoist

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
Besserwisser from Planet of Hats Since: Dec, 2009
#8166: Dec 26th 2013 at 4:21:19 AM

One, for which men? Not all men are at equal odds of assault; I'd wager it's a very bimodal distribution.

Two, if you're arguing that women are being trained to be fearful, I think there's a lot to that argument, but it's not exactly one that feminists will have a prima facie problem with.

Three, you may have noted that I used and am continuing to use gender-neutral language when discussing rape. There's a reason for that.

1. Overall men are at a higher risk than women. There are probably groups that are more at risk both with men and women but I'm not sure why that is so important to you.

2. Feminists often contribute to this problem by overstating risks. Such as earlier in this thread when conviction rates were claimed to be incredibly low.

3. I didn't specifically address you with that gendered language but rather responded to claims I heard which was about the fear of women, which were unsurprisingly gendered in the first place.

Also bull puckey. A feminist perspective that assumes that is full of shit. An evidence-based feminist perspective will take into account that most rapes are committed by a few repeat offenders who rely on social cover, often with the aid of alcohol or authority, to strike again and again. These are people who are methodical about identifying and attacking the most vulnerable targets. Rape is about power and predators seek power differentials.

We can agree on that much then. Out of curiosity, what do you think about poster campaigns telling men not to rape?

I'll have to look that incident up to see if I can see it from the other side or even get a somehow more neutral source. With the gender-neutral language you're using, I'm assuming you also want safe spaces for men?

Edit: For one thing about this incident, do you really support the gendered language in an offical response? And I do think putting up a system to anonymously report people over the internet is a dumb idea to begin with.

edited 26th Dec '13 4:26:28 AM by Besserwisser

RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#8167: Dec 26th 2013 at 4:39:12 AM

Overall men are at a higher risk than women. There are probably groups that are more at risk both with men and women but I'm not sure why that is so important to you.
Sorry, I reject the "overall". I believe that socioeconomic and demographic factors are significant in determining which men face risks and overwhelmingly so. It's important to me because I'm big on intersectionalism and care a lot about the treatment of ethnic minorities, the poor, gender and sexuality minorities, and other vulnerable groups. There is an old group of feminists who care about women's issues and women's issues alone, but those transphobes can go fry ice.
Feminists often contribute to this problem by overstating risks. Such as earlier in this thread when conviction rates were claimed to be incredibly low.
I remain skeptical of that "often", but that may be because of the recent event in which a bunch of antifeminists (there are people I don't call men's rights anythings anymore) deliberately tried to confound data gathering on the subject. I have yet to see feminists try to insert deliberate noise into the signal like that. I acknowledge that recent events may have my hackles up (though I don't think raised hackles are a poor reaction in that case).
the fear of women, which were unsurprisingly gendered in the first place
I wonder about the fears of male victims of assault. Are they so far off?
We can agree on that much then. Out of curiosity, what do you think about poster campaigns telling men not to rape?
Awesome, they work and we need more of them. If we can expand them to more contexts and orientations (women-on-men, men-on-men, women-on-women) all the better.
With the gender-neutral language you're using, I'm assuming you also want safe spaces for men?
Of course, everyone deserves safe spaces. That goes for women, men, and others. Keep in mind, though, that making certain spaces safe involves different processes. The college drinking party, clubbing, and social circuits are areas that need to be made safer for women, but men don't face such a threat of sexual assault there (drunk fights sure, but if you know a cure for drunk young guys getting into brawls I'm keen to hear it). The spaces where men are at risk of sexual assault can and should be made safer.

And then there's the bigger sibling to acquaintance rape, family rape. It's very hard to create safe spaces in other people's families, and that's a thorny issue that takes a lot of untangling and is usually addressed only across generations, sadly. I personally suspect the majority of rape that happens to men falls in this category, but that's just a hunch. I have no idea how big a proportion of rapes familial rapes are.

EDIT:

For one thing about this incident, do you really support the gendered language in an offical response?
I didn't like it, but it wasn't the big problem here. :S Baby steps.
And I do think putting up a system to anonymously report people over the internet is a dumb idea to begin with.
Marrying implementation to context is what makes a reporting system, I can see contexts where this kind of reporting system would be optimal.

edited 26th Dec '13 4:41:27 AM by RadicalTaoist

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#8168: Dec 26th 2013 at 4:46:49 AM

@Teraus: Since your original rant in the Women's Issues thread was quoting me I guess I should answer you.

  • First of: How many men who get falsly accused of rape get convicted for it? Considering even real rapists get convicted in such a low rate it can't be much. Considering you need evidence it will tend to be zero. This doesn't make false rape accusations ok. But:

  • Secondly: Why are you focusing on false rape accusations and not other crime accusations?

  • Thirdly: Why do you assume only women can make false rape accusations against men? Why not same-sex allegations, why not the other way round? Might it be because male on female rape is so much more common?

  • Fourthly: You claim that men are oppressed by sexism when they make 90% of work related accidents. But when women make 90% of rape victims it's not oppression by sexism. Why?

  • Fifthly: Patriarchy is not a conspiracy of a secret cabal of men. It's the traditions, practizes, worldviews and assumptions of our cultures. Ask any sociologist about that, it's not some made up thing.

  • Sixthly: Men are expandable: That's because women are treated like children. Saying they even killed women adn children makes this rather obvious. They're more precious like children are more "precious". Something weak and helpless that has to be protected by men and be lead by men. This naturally comes with not being taken seriously. That also explains the lesser punishments they receive for crimes. Just like children would.

  • Seventhly: As the abortion of so many female fetuses in China and India can show you, patriarchal cultures do not value women over men. We were the same. Girls didn't inherit as much like boys if at all. Girls were property.

  • Eighthly: Not all points of MR As are bullshit. The draft (in countries that still have them) are still sexist. But they blow it out of proportion and blame their problems on feminism. You claim patriarchy is a conspiracy but your the one talking about a feminist conspiracy.

Mandemo Since: Apr, 2010
#8169: Dec 26th 2013 at 4:49:06 AM

Bullshit, telling men to "Do not rape" does not work. If someone decides to rape, it does not help to tell them to "not to rape".

This like telling a man planning to shoot someone to "Please do not kill" with a poster. Not going to be very effective, is it?

Not to mention, it's insulting. It's treating men as animals, as someone incapable of independent thought, someone who needs to "taught the proper way".

Dunno exact numbers how many men decide to rape, but, let's say it's 10%. Those 90% already know not to rape. Those 10%? Pretty please is not going to work.

Also, why there are no "Women, please do not rape". It's not men who only rape: Women can do it too. Not to mention, when women do rape, they get lighter sentences and the victims (unless they are women) do not get the same level of care as victims of male rape. A male gets raped by female? Lucky bastard. Male rape victims are totally ignored, in favor of "Look at the poor women, those brutish and animistic males should,be enlightened and made to feel sorry for their existence."

EDIT

Men who get jailed for false rape accusation get sentenced for rape, not for "Falsely accused of rape". As such, unless the investigation is reopened and sentence found wrong, they are put into "rape" column.

As such, statistics will show huge amount of rapist getting jailed, while false rape accusations are found to be false. This is because their nature: If they do find they are false, they are filed under that.

But if they are not found false, even if they are, they are filed under rape.

edited 26th Dec '13 4:52:22 AM by Mandemo

Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#8170: Dec 26th 2013 at 4:57:23 AM

In some cultures 60% of men have admitted to have raped someone. In our cultures it's less. So yes, you can teach people not to rape. Not all of them but many of them. Is fighting against racist attitudes also insulting to the racists? Then why is fighting against sexist attitudes treating them like animals.

By the way, it's often men who say "I can not help it" who treat men like animals.

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#8171: Dec 26th 2013 at 5:51:23 AM

This like telling a man planning to shoot someone to "Please do not kill" with a poster. Not going to be very effective, is it?

Sure it is, if they were unaware that shooting this person would, in fact, kill them. For example, an astounding problem with rape is that a lot of people who commit it (both men and women) do not think what they're doing is rape. The use of alcohol or coercion, or the lack of a "Flat No" gives them the impression that their actions are "Not-Rape" and therefore okay. Teaching people that what they're doing is rape can go very far in reducing both the crime and acceptance of the crime.

Not to mention, it's insulting. It's treating men as animals, as someone incapable of independent thought, someone who needs to "taught the proper way".

So what? We're not here to spare feelings of people doing the wrong thing. We're here to prevent or punish the ones that do.

edited 26th Dec '13 5:51:45 AM by KingZeal

Mandemo Since: Apr, 2010
#8172: Dec 26th 2013 at 6:10:00 AM

[up]Except you are insulting 90% of men who are not doing anything wrong.

It's funny how men are constantly lumped as this homogenious group that acts and thinks as one.

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#8173: Dec 26th 2013 at 6:16:28 AM

How do these "90%" know they aren't "doing anything wrong"? Anyone can have the wrong idea about something, and if it's painful to entertain the notion that you might be wrong, then that's too bad.

Also, convenient how you missed that I said both men and women could have it wrong. But by all means, continue to twist my words and decry non-existent "reverse sexism" with actual sexism.

edited 26th Dec '13 6:17:47 AM by KingZeal

Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#8174: Dec 26th 2013 at 6:16:50 AM

[up][up]It's funny how [insert group thought to be oppressive here] are constantly lumped as this homogeneous group that acts and thinks as one.

[up] So by analogy, because a relatively small part of group X is bad all members of group X should be treated as bad?

edited 26th Dec '13 6:18:39 AM by Soban

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#8175: Dec 26th 2013 at 6:20:15 AM

Again, define this "small part". Are you talking about people who actually commit rape, or people who don't see things that are rape as being rape?

edited 26th Dec '13 6:21:24 AM by KingZeal


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