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Sexism and Men's Issues

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MOD NOTE: Please note the following part of the forum rules:

If you don't like a thread, don't post in it. Posting in a thread simply to say you don't like it, or that it's stupid, or to point out that you 'knew who made it before you even clicked on it', or to predict that it will end badly will get you warned.

The initial OP posted below covers it well enough: the premise of this thread is that men's issues exist. Don't bother posting if you don't believe there is such a thing.


Here's hoping this isn't considered too redundant. I've noticed that our existing threads about sexism tend to get bogged down in Oppression Olympics or else wildly derailed, so I thought I'd make a thread specifically to talk about discrimination issues that disproportionately affect men.

No Oppression Olympics here, okay? No saying "But that's not important because women suffer X which is worse!" And no discussing these issues purely in terms of how much better women have it. Okay? If the discussion cannot meaningfully proceed without making a comparison to male and female treatment, that's fine, but on the whole I want this thread to be about how men are harmed by society and how we can fix it. Issues like:

  • The male-only draft (in countries that have one)
  • Circumcision
  • Cavalier attitudes toward men's pain and sickness, AKA "Walk it off!"
  • The Success Myth, which defines a man's desirability by his material success. Also The Myth of Men Not Being Hot, which denies that men can be sexually attractive as male beings.
  • Sexual abuse of men.
  • Family law.
  • General attitudes that men are dangerous or untrustworthy.

I could go on making the list, but I think you get the idea.

Despite what you might have heard about feminists not caring about men, it's not true. I care about men. Patriarchy sucks for them as much as it sucks for women, in a lot of ways. So I'm putting my keyboard where my mouth is and making a thread for us to all care about men.

Also? If you're male and think of something as a men's issue, by golly that makes it a men's issue fit for inclusion in this thread. I might disagree with you as to the solution, but as a woman I'm not going to tell you you have no right to be concerned about it. No "womansplaining" here.

Edited by nombretomado on Dec 15th 2019 at 5:19:34 AM

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#301: Sep 7th 2012 at 7:53:54 PM

Has everyone already seen this?

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#302: Sep 7th 2012 at 8:43:30 PM

That was posted a while ago. It's an interesting take on things.

Also, I really like this article. It's a bit pushy and generalizes too much in a couple of areas, but otherwise its a good read.

EDIT: What I liked about it; its the first article I've seen regarding online misogyny that doesn't open with categorically blaming masculinity. Indeed, it adopts the position that the problem isn't masculinity but a generation of males who refuse to adopt its tenets.

I'd tend to agree; grown men don't treat women in the fashions I've observed online. And said behavior generally reminds me of little children.

edited 7th Sep '12 8:47:36 PM by drunkscriblerian

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#303: Sep 7th 2012 at 10:31:54 PM

@video

Yeah, anyone that carelessly says "You go girl" to a hostile person needs to recant the statement.

breadloaf Since: Oct, 2010
#304: Sep 7th 2012 at 11:27:27 PM

Less men as a percentage at post-secondary level education is due to how men are raised rather than admission issues. Women don't get preference, and most certainly do not in Ontario where the only identifying feature about you is "application number". It's not even possible to know if the person is white, black, male or female.

Generally speaking, we've opened the working world up to women... except in labour areas. So men can work in labour jobs and dangerous jobs but women are still not pushed to go into those fields. It would boost female salaries if they entered those jobs and at the same time, things such as grocery store cashier or teacher, should have more males in there. It's a cultural problem.

People at age 40+, who are female, can straight up tell you that they were actually blocked from certain labour jobs, so the current dearth in females working at (for instance) coal mining is due to them being legally blocked from working there. Engineering is another field where they were largely blocked from getting any jobs, so getting an education in that field was utterly pointless up until 20-30 years ago. It's not really that long ago.

So I think if we want to accelerate it, we'll have to just have active programs to push men into jobs such as teaching, as well as start to clamp down on businesses who have zero male waiters, flight attendants, cashiers, while simultaneously pushing women into areas such as construction, mining and trade skills.

Talby Since: Jun, 2009
#305: Sep 8th 2012 at 1:02:35 AM

Here's something related the above video on double standards when it comes to violence;

Basically, a woman cut off her husband's penis because he was divorcing her. These women think that is hilarious, and see nothing wrong with mutilating someone's genitals when the victim is a man and the perpetrator is a woman.

Imagine the reaction if the situation were reversed, and this was a group of men laughing and joking about a man who cut off his wife's breasts or mutilated her genitals.

edited 8th Sep '12 1:16:27 AM by Talby

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#306: Sep 8th 2012 at 1:25:54 AM

While it's not genital mutilation, there is that Japanese guy who killed a woman, had sex with her corpse, and ate her flesh; he's become a semi-popular celebrity in Japan and has even been paid to write restaurant reviews.

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#307: Sep 8th 2012 at 1:34:50 AM

[up]

I think I remember him. Didn't he not go to jail due to a snafu between the Japanese and French(?) governments?

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#308: Sep 8th 2012 at 1:47:24 AM

[up][up]

Yeah, I found out abut him from this Cracked list. His name's Issei Sagawa. And a lack of cooperation between Japan and France is the reason (along with a wealthy father) he's not rotting in jail.

This is one of those rare cases were I would whole heatedly endorse vigilantism.

edited 8th Sep '12 1:47:42 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#309: Sep 8th 2012 at 1:51:26 AM

[up][up] Yeah, the French declared him not guilty by reason of insanity and said he should be institutionalized. But when he was deported back to Japan, the Japanese psychologists declared him sane, so they couldn't force him into a mental institution, and they couldn't prosecute or extradite him since he'd already been found not guilty.

This is getting off-topic, though.

edited 8th Sep '12 1:53:59 AM by RavenWilder

Besserwisser from Planet of Hats Since: Dec, 2009
#310: Sep 8th 2012 at 2:33:19 AM

@broadleaf Women are more represented in higher education because girls are having an advantage in lower education. That's rarely a topic in mainstream media and if it is, usually boys are just represented as lazy/dumb/worse than girls overall. Yet, when this results in unfavourable dating for women, that's enough to make an article about it.

breadloaf Since: Oct, 2010
#311: Sep 8th 2012 at 4:13:32 AM

Actually, sex-based performance is in the news all the time where I'm at, so I don't think it's "not reported" at all. However, I think you imply (if I'm not mistaken) that we don't care that males perform worse or perhaps that the system is purposely designed for males to perform worse. Neither of these are true. (Also I've never seen mainstream media in Canada ever report that males perform worse because they are dumb/lazy. I think you're inventing a problem that does not exist)

The problem is that educators aren't sure why the case is that males perform worse but there are many hypothesis (such as the style of teaching is the issue) but we aren't sure and it's difficult to make experiments on this because not only does it take a long time but also parents would be pissed if their children were put into an experimental education program and their children did worse, so politicians have no incentive to change the education system.

Experiments I have seen conducted in recent times included separating boys from girls. The result was that boys performed at the same level while girls went substantially up. It's not like people aren't trying, it just seems that everything we try helps out women and nothing helps out boys.

edited 8th Sep '12 4:16:46 AM by breadloaf

LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#312: Sep 8th 2012 at 4:21:00 AM

Perhaps it's because boys don't see being smart or doing well at school as a 'masculine' thing. Sometimes, people think it's cool to play up in class, to be seen as not caring about your grades.

Be not afraid...
breadloaf Since: Oct, 2010
#313: Sep 8th 2012 at 4:24:27 AM

Being successful in life is very masculine, in my opinion, and failing at school is not very successful.

Poor performance might also be an age issue where males will average out to the same grades at later ages than at earlier ones. I've seen that as a hypothesis as well. If you look at post-secondary performance, the gender difference is different than at elementary or secondary level performance. I think the difference between the sexes is more pronounced the younger you go, but someone should probably confirm that.

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#314: Sep 8th 2012 at 4:27:48 AM

Oh god, now I don't even know what is and isn't masculine.That's how much this thread has confused me.

[up][up]Although, acting "cool" and acting "masculine" are two different things.

edited 8th Sep '12 4:31:21 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#315: Sep 8th 2012 at 4:36:04 AM

Yeah, but what role models do little boys have for what's 'masculine'? What people/characters do little boys look at and idolise? I'm not an expert, but probably sports players, superheroes, characters starring in military or violent shows. Performers or singers, maybe. Sports are still seen as quite 'masculine', so I can see how maybe boys might be accidentally picking up the idea that being stronger mentally is the opposite to that.

I haven't read any studies or anything on the subject, but that seems possible to me.

edited 8th Sep '12 4:36:16 AM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...
Talby Since: Jun, 2009
#316: Sep 8th 2012 at 4:46:55 AM

And yet men still dominate in the areas of math, science and engineering.

Besserwisser from Planet of Hats Since: Dec, 2009
#317: Sep 8th 2012 at 6:09:11 AM

I guess I might be overstating the issue I have here. It still gets me mad when I see how male underrepresantation is somehow displayed as a female problem.

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#318: Sep 8th 2012 at 6:46:53 AM

@Talby: ...That video, to be honest, just horrified me. I mean, how could they be laughing at that? Heck, one of them even brought up a good point, if it had been a guy cutting off a women's breast, no one would be laughing, and the rest just brushed that off like it was nothing, and just kept laughing. It made me sick.

ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#319: Sep 8th 2012 at 7:54:19 AM

Yes, I am not sure about this either.

If children acted rationally I would say it's because girls understand that they need to be smarter in school to get even barely comparable pay compared to boys because women aren't encouraged to go into fields that require less education and more physical prowess (like construction and etc), but children wouldn't really understand that. The dominant theory though seems to be that learning through primary school is mostly of the "sit down and shut up" variety, which generally girls are better at doing than boys.

Question: what are the stats of men and women applying to college?

edited 8th Sep '12 7:55:00 AM by ohsointocats

Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#320: Sep 8th 2012 at 8:18:07 AM

We also need to keep in mind in grade schools, girls mature faster than boys both metally and to a point physically.

All the girls in my son's Kindergarden class are the tallest as well as doing more consenstant in their letters and writing.

But if we go to the art room, we see the results evening out towards 3rd or 4th grade.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
Besserwisser from Planet of Hats Since: Dec, 2009
#321: Sep 8th 2012 at 9:08:43 AM

To be perfectly fair to the show, they did apologize later on after massive complains from their audience (and people who watched the video on Youtube). Although they did laugh a fair amount before that apology.

Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#322: Sep 8th 2012 at 9:15:50 AM

@Talby: I remember a thread on The Talk incident.

Also, what do you think about "equal standards" vs. "appropriate standards" (e.g. handicaps in physical education)?

breadloaf Since: Oct, 2010
#323: Sep 8th 2012 at 2:03:53 PM

@ Loni Jay

Really? I mean like I've seen scientists, engineers and mathematicians as role models shown to children. However, I do have to say that my very limited experience of Australian culture is that it is incredibly sexist and has an insane amount of physically-based male macho-ism. Canadian male opinions seem like you'd be gay pansies over there.

@ Post-secondary education

I think that the "over-representation of women" in post-secondary education is inaccurate because the vast majority of female over-representation is almost entirely within arts programs. There are a few sciences where females also dominate (such as the medical field) but the "domination" is a slight edge for women. Whereas things like engineering, they have 80% male upwards to 95% for computer-related fields. The only comparable imbalance with women is womyn's studies.

One has to remember that over 50% of even a polytechnique/engineering school is still arts where it's like 60% female "domination", thus the massive imbalance of males over females in the "money" fields is actually a bigger problem. The reason it's represented as a "female" problem is that it still is. Some part of the reason that women earn 70 cents for each dollar a man earns is that their education isn't in the more lucrative fields.

What we'd prefer is 50% in all fields. What it is right now is like 60% females in the non-money fields and 20% females in the money fields.

ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#324: Sep 8th 2012 at 2:38:49 PM

I also think that most of the 70% deal with women's salaries is still present in identical jobs between men and women so I don't think that explains the pay gap.

edited 8th Sep '12 2:39:00 PM by ohsointocats

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#325: Sep 8th 2012 at 2:46:22 PM

[up]

Maybe women don't want to take the same jobs as men?

Keep Rolling On

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