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Sexism and Men's Issues

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MOD NOTE: Please note the following part of the forum rules:

If you don't like a thread, don't post in it. Posting in a thread simply to say you don't like it, or that it's stupid, or to point out that you 'knew who made it before you even clicked on it', or to predict that it will end badly will get you warned.

The initial OP posted below covers it well enough: the premise of this thread is that men's issues exist. Don't bother posting if you don't believe there is such a thing.


Here's hoping this isn't considered too redundant. I've noticed that our existing threads about sexism tend to get bogged down in Oppression Olympics or else wildly derailed, so I thought I'd make a thread specifically to talk about discrimination issues that disproportionately affect men.

No Oppression Olympics here, okay? No saying "But that's not important because women suffer X which is worse!" And no discussing these issues purely in terms of how much better women have it. Okay? If the discussion cannot meaningfully proceed without making a comparison to male and female treatment, that's fine, but on the whole I want this thread to be about how men are harmed by society and how we can fix it. Issues like:

  • The male-only draft (in countries that have one)
  • Circumcision
  • Cavalier attitudes toward men's pain and sickness, AKA "Walk it off!"
  • The Success Myth, which defines a man's desirability by his material success. Also The Myth of Men Not Being Hot, which denies that men can be sexually attractive as male beings.
  • Sexual abuse of men.
  • Family law.
  • General attitudes that men are dangerous or untrustworthy.

I could go on making the list, but I think you get the idea.

Despite what you might have heard about feminists not caring about men, it's not true. I care about men. Patriarchy sucks for them as much as it sucks for women, in a lot of ways. So I'm putting my keyboard where my mouth is and making a thread for us to all care about men.

Also? If you're male and think of something as a men's issue, by golly that makes it a men's issue fit for inclusion in this thread. I might disagree with you as to the solution, but as a woman I'm not going to tell you you have no right to be concerned about it. No "womansplaining" here.

Edited by nombretomado on Dec 15th 2019 at 5:19:34 AM

Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#276: Jul 13th 2012 at 6:06:57 AM

I'm going to say this again: Not all court cases involved married couples.

Had I been married, not just engaged to my son's father, things would have been completely different. I would have had A LOT more legal protection. For example, if a couple was legally married then paternity I assumed unless the burden of proof for adultry can be proven by the husband. In cases where there is no marriage, the burden of proof is on the woman to prove their relationship. My ex didn't automaticallyhave to pay me back for any of the medcal bills. Had we been married, that wouldn't be the case.

I don't blame the legal system for having a perspective that's slanted. When you see hundreds if not thousand of cases of dead beat dads, you can't really help it. Now if they refuse to notice an exception, that's a different conversation.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
breadloaf Since: Oct, 2010
#277: Jul 13th 2012 at 11:08:15 AM

I will say this, the people in the justice system aren't sexist but systems tend toward a low-cost operating structure. If they deal more with fathers who run out on their children, then the system becomes well designed to handle that case but not well designed to handle other types of cases. So in cases where the father is a better parent, it's a lot more difficult for the court to discover.

However, I think the media and the public is very receptive to those types of problems. If a man complains he was a good father and the mother is a crazy person who ran away with the children, the public is highly receptive to his plight. Everybody *talks* about how the public doesn't care, I don't think that's true. How else does it get to top headline news every so often? So there's will power to solve it.

edited 13th Jul '12 11:09:14 AM by breadloaf

Wicked223 from Death Star in the forest Since: Apr, 2009
#278: Jul 13th 2012 at 11:36:41 AM

As I understand, something around 90% of custody cases aren't contested, and mutually agree to give custody to the mother. When the cases are contested, the results are closer to parity.

You can't even write racist abuse in excrement on somebody's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat!
Karalora Since: Jan, 2001
#279: Jul 13th 2012 at 11:50:52 AM

I was just about to say the same thing, Wicked. We need to maintain the distinction between custody arrangements that are decided by the parents themselves, and custody arrangements that are decided by a judge.

One legitimate concern, though, is men who would like to sue for custody but don't bother because "everyone knows" they couldn't possibly win.

OrangeSodaGuy Since: Oct, 2010
#280: Jul 13th 2012 at 12:59:16 PM

[please delete]

edited 5th May '17 10:38:30 AM by OrangeSodaGuy

breadloaf Since: Oct, 2010
#281: Jul 13th 2012 at 1:24:48 PM

Well my responses are based on the Canadian experience. American media is far more sexist than Canadian media, so I generally don't feel the same way because I'm not as exposed to that.

For instance, I saw this commercial recently, from America, about a spark plug, where this guy's wife is bitching at him constantly with an ending caption of "the gut knows not to say a damn thing". That isn't funny at all to me and it would be no-go zone in Canada to push out such blatantly sexist garbage on tv. (Basically the implication is that the woman takes care of the house and the guy takes care of just the car)

edited 13th Jul '12 1:26:45 PM by breadloaf

Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#282: Jul 13th 2012 at 1:27:21 PM

@ Orange Soda Guy

If only people had "Loser" or "Awesome" on their foreheads to help women know if they were safe with these men or not. My ex was such a good liar had I not gotten pregnant who knows how long it would have taken for him to be honest about his affair he was having. I was working two jobs and going to college full time, so I wouldn't have noticed to question his movements.

I never said the system was good. I merely pointed out why it is the way it is. I never advocated women be given carte blance either. We all have an ideal. The reality doesn't match it.

Again, what solutions can you offer for consideration? Better sex ed so pregnancy doesn't have to be such a problem? Better access to contraception? More community outreach to feature the fathers who do stay with their kids?

What do you offer?

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
OrangeSodaGuy Since: Oct, 2010
#283: Jul 13th 2012 at 2:04:50 PM

[please delete]

edited 5th May '17 10:38:53 AM by OrangeSodaGuy

Wicked223 from Death Star in the forest Since: Apr, 2009
#284: Jul 13th 2012 at 2:16:32 PM

Last I've checked, 53% of domestic violence victims are men.

source?

You can't even write racist abuse in excrement on somebody's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat!
OrangeSodaGuy Since: Oct, 2010
#285: Jul 13th 2012 at 2:26:42 PM

[up]

Wait a second— you got me on this one, I got my facts jumbled... I apologize sad I was thinking of this study, where 53 percent of male victims suffer an act of abuse before the age of 25.

This article highlights some facts regarding domestic violence. Reading here, I noticed something interesting:

In 2006, the Journal of Family Psychology (an American Journal) published the results of research which found that, between couples, the incidence of male-to-female violence was 13.66%, but for female-to-male violence it was actually higher at 18.20%3. It also found that women were twice as likely as men to initiate severe violence against their partners. This finding is supported by a more recent California State University survey of some 286 scholarly investigations, 221 empirical studies and 65 reviews independent studies. It concludes that women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships.

edited 13th Jul '12 2:52:23 PM by OrangeSodaGuy

OrangeSodaGuy Since: Oct, 2010
#286: Jul 13th 2012 at 2:30:43 PM

[please delete]

edited 5th May '17 10:39:12 AM by OrangeSodaGuy

breadloaf Since: Oct, 2010
#287: Jul 13th 2012 at 2:31:36 PM

I would agree with more support for keeping people together, especially in light of children and to extend this support beyond just married couples is the more important point. There are a greater number of non-marriage relationships today due to how the modern world works (less religious) and so generally this community approach seems to replace the function of what religious institutions would have served originally.

Generally, I think that the guidelines for child custody is just plain bad. That is, there isn't any. Basically, we look at the mother and if the mother sucks donkey balls then we give the children to the father, unless he also sucks donkey balls. We don't actually check who is better. The more automated the process is for child custody the less there is for parents to say or do when it a divorce or separation of a couple happens. This includes transfer of money for child support. I just think the process should be as automatic as possible to reduce the adversarial nature of the issues to create a more positive environment for children.

Not sure on that number for domestic abuse victims being more of a male problem than female one. That sounds exceptionally suspicious. (EDIT: Read the link, still kinda hard to verify that source. I'm not sure what is being counted as domestic violence as it appears any kind and severity is included. I believe that society, as it is currently, places greater emphasis on physical violence and less on psychological abuse)

Mandatory parental lineage testing sounds more like "I don't want to support this kid if it's not mine". It's a legitimate concern but should only be raised in situations where the father wants to contest lineage. Otherwise, actually, Canada has ended the practice of even doing automatic blood type testing to reduce strain on marriages.

Sex education occurs by Grade 6 here under new guidelines, but that has more to do with vocabulary and then by grade 9 it's full blown sexual education (including how to use a condom). I'm not sure what it is like in other areas.

edited 13th Jul '12 2:34:20 PM by breadloaf

Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#288: Jul 13th 2012 at 5:22:21 PM

@ Orange Soda Guy - Regardless if you were directing your comments to me or anyone else, such a satement about why people would give their bodies to deadbeats is tacky.

@ Child Support

My state attends to my child support like this:

Ex's child support is automatically withdrawn and sent to Child Support Enforcement. (They also did his DNA testing.) Child Support Enforcement then directly deposits it in my account. My ex has been in contempt of court status 5 times. I say status because CSE is so overworked, they didn't know until I told them. He has missed a warrant only because of this delay in attention.

I know there are some women who use child support as a form of punishment. I just want to slap them because their actions only complicate matters for us single parents who only want our fair help.

My state also bars access to certain social programs like daycare vouchers unless you have an open child support case. The only exception is if you can prove abuse or death.

Another thing is if any parent is paying child support they get visitation in some form. (Again, abuse or something like it will give an exemption.)

Now if they use that visitation or not is different. But it is still a legally secured option.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
OrangeSodaGuy Since: Oct, 2010
#289: Jul 14th 2012 at 12:27:57 PM

[please delete]

edited 5th May '17 10:39:33 AM by OrangeSodaGuy

ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#290: Jul 14th 2012 at 1:50:33 PM

How so? Another thing on my mind is the question of who raised so many of these deadbeats. It takes two to tango, the way I see it.

My guess would be that single parents raised most of them.

Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#291: Jul 14th 2012 at 2:47:36 PM

Wow. Way to go guys. Classy.

My ex came from a family that makes over 6 figures a year, family never divorced, something out of a damn Norman Rockwell painting. Considering this, it only made me feel more secure in that someone from such a healthy family would be an ideal husband and father. Hell, he had a good role models.

You can't make generalizations like this with such insensitive nonsense. If you want to talk about possible family contributions to men abandoning their kids, that's a valid and debatable conversation. But to just jump in and be not just insulting and over simplistic of a very complex issue isn't the way to go.

The few people who choose to be single parents can do so because they are most likely very wealthy and have a strong family support structure. Otherwise, no average person chooses to be a single parent regardless of their gender.

Most male single parents are applauded because they are so rare to see. Single moms are not given the same treatment. I am willing to bet if men carried the babies and women didn't, it would still correlate. Men would probably be treated like dumb whores and women would somehow be exhaulted for going against biology to have paternal instinct over something they didn't grow themselves.

Oversimplification of genders and roles can only lead to more conflict. Men are more than sperm donors. Women are more than incubators. At least they could be if society would change their mind on how they want to restrict, value, and judge their members.

I had people blame me for my ex's affair. I must have done something wrong for my soon to be husband to leave me. He however, was treated with sympathy for having a crazy fiancee. At least until the DNA test and the hearing. Then it went from frat boy bonding to "baby momma drama". Funny how no one asks him where his wife is when he has our son. But when I have my son, people still look at my hand and scowl.

We can't automatically exhault single fathers anymore than we can automatically condemn single mothers. It cheapens parents of both genders.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
0dd1 Just awesome like that from Nowhere Land Since: Sep, 2009
Just awesome like that
#292: Jul 15th 2012 at 10:57:41 PM

Okay, this conversation is going into a horrible place and I'm gonna call a mod in if everyone doesn't cool it. Orange Soda Guy, some of the things you've said are a bit...how can I put this...inflammatory? Especially the part about "who's choosing to give their bodies to those deadbeats in the first place?" That was kind of rude, unnecessary, and presumptuous. Cats, same thing for your "single parents" comment. And Gabrael, I realize that this is an issue that hits close to home for you, but you must keep a cool head and not go off ranting. If something pisses you off, step away from the conversation before you end up escalating the conflict too much and getting yourself in trouble in the process. I realize no one here probably intends to cause harm, but you all need to tone it down, be a bit more respectful, and just generally think before you hit "send."

But, then, this is OTC, so...yeah.

EDIT: Or, lemme quote (part of) a post from the Edit Banned thread that explains part of what I said better:

So what I did wrong was:

...

  • Got excessively rude or snarky in some posts (which I really wish I had edited and apologized for soon after).
...
  • Kept posting in the forums when I was in a bad mood. That is almost never a good idea.
(get rid of the "almost", though)

edited 15th Jul '12 11:05:48 PM by 0dd1

Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.
Morven Nemesis from Seattle, WA, USA Since: Jan, 2001
Nemesis
#293: Jul 16th 2012 at 11:10:57 AM

I don't think Gabrael said anything wrong, personally. No need to include her just to seem "fair".

Otherwise, yes. Orange Soda, you're being an ass and a judgmental one at that. Please calm it.

A brighter future for a darker age.
OrangeSodaGuy Since: Oct, 2010
#294: Jul 16th 2012 at 11:43:25 AM

[please delete]

EDIT: Sent out a couple of PM's to some of the tropers in this thread. I apologize for coming off sounding overly snarky, bitter, and judgmental and hope that we can cool things down. Here's hoping that nothing that happened here will lead to any bad blood in future discussions. Cheers.

edited 5th May '17 10:40:07 AM by OrangeSodaGuy

BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#295: Jul 16th 2012 at 1:13:12 PM

Okay, this is not QUITE related to the topic, but every time I see someone bragging "I'm so un-PC" I think of this:

edited 16th Jul '12 1:13:19 PM by BlackHumor

0dd1 Just awesome like that from Nowhere Land Since: Sep, 2009
Just awesome like that
#296: Jul 16th 2012 at 2:58:32 PM

No, I don't think Gab said anything wrong, but I was just hoping to try to cool people's tempers.

[up] I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. That was amazing.

edited 16th Jul '12 3:06:55 PM by 0dd1

Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#297: Jul 16th 2012 at 9:49:31 PM

[up]: It's been a while since I switched my signature; may I quote that?

0dd1 Just awesome like that from Nowhere Land Since: Sep, 2009
Just awesome like that
#298: Jul 16th 2012 at 11:30:10 PM

Be my guest good sir.

Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.
Besserwisser from Planet of Hats Since: Dec, 2009
#299: Sep 7th 2012 at 3:19:41 PM

On annother topic, that's hopefully not quite as much bad blood about: men are rarely represented as victims. Some pages page someone linked an article regarding the higher number of female students at colleges. The main point of the article was that women were somehow at a disadvantage because there weren't enough men to date with. At no point it was even considered that men were somehow discriminated against, even when there were surely articles saying that about women when they were a minority in places of higher education.

Your thoughts on the matter?

Morven Nemesis from Seattle, WA, USA Since: Jan, 2001
Nemesis
#300: Sep 7th 2012 at 5:07:12 PM

There's a big resistance on most "sides" to placing men in a victim role. Men generally don't want to be seen that way. Women generally don't want to see men that way. It means that the blinders there are super effective, because most major ideologies and attitudes are pulling together.

I don't think the problem's at college; the problem is before college and before adulthood. Something is going wrong in the raising and educating of young men, and I'm not convinced we truly know the answer. There may not be one single answer, of course.

A brighter future for a darker age.

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