The Problem with Protecting the "Sacred"

Sometimes people just need to be offended.

I'm sorry. Complacency can make populations deaf and blind to a problem until someone is willing to do something shocking. It was supposed to offend people, that's the point of the protest - it should make people ask uncomfortable questions about why such offense was taken. And in the face of these death threats, I'd say it was absolutely justified.

True enough. A protest that doesn't risk any consequences isn't much of a protest. And fortunately, the scenario I described didn't match what actually happened, and the student in question wasn't left to starve in the streets. You're utterly within your rights to not want to hang out with the guy, and I wouldn't blame you.

I'd hope a devoutly Catholic family wouldn't disown or abuse a child over something like this, though.

Sorry, symbolism is symbolism. Remember that you're talking to someone utterly irreligious here. You say "it's sacred and important", and I think about what happened to Hamza Kashgari.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.

True. And irrelevant. An asshole bi is an asshole bi. If I didn't know you, you'd simply be a bi on the internet, whether or not you're an asshole would be determined over time, not based on other asshole bis.

We are entitled to seek, question, refine, and disagree on what it means to be true to our faith. Just like every LGBTQ person has the right to decide for themselves what their sexual orientations and preferences mean.

It was an honor

You are irreligious; but still, you know that we do not see it as a mere symbol, I suppose. I can understand and accept that you believe us mistaken; but in order to understand our motivations, that's something that should be kept in mind.

If a child of mine did something like that, I would not disown or abuse him. But I would attempt to make reparations to the Church, and have him do the same, and ground him for quite a long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long time. And I would do some serious soul-searching to try to understand how did I manage to fail that much as a parent.

edited 13th Jun '12 3:08:20 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

Now being passionately militant when it comes to Buddhism can be hypocritical. As that flies in the face of what is considered to be the base core philosophy of the religion. Whether you militantly hate reality and feel miserable because of it or that you feel everyone should be vegan because it is fuck awesome and EVERYONE MUST BE VEGAN EVER OMG there's issue here.

Namely the feeling.

It's not that Buddhists don't and aren't encouraged to have strong beliefs and to stand strongly it is that we are discouraged to passionately feel for them. So you will stand your ground when protecting someone who is being treated like shit or harmed in a calm and nigh emotionless manner. Not because you want to or because your emotional core says "this is right" but because you harbor knowledge and wisdom that "suffering feels bad, undue suffering should be fought against".

I myself don't believe that Buddhism is the only way to deal with things. Some may be perfectly fine and satisfied with a rebirth system. Such as various Pagans that I know. If this is how they deal with problems, and there are many methods in which to deal with problems, then this is fine. I ask only that one avoids causing suffering as much as they can within reason.

I'd also love for there to be bigger and larger cases of many cultural and religious groups and standings to co-exist and support one another without collapsing into some fit of rage or one group squashing all the rest. Unfortunately I've only seen this in small groups like at my temple or that one UU church I like.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

And sometimes people need to grow the fuck up. Ghandi, Dr./Rev. King, and others were able to protest and effect real change, and they were notorious in their civility and maturity. Being a dipshit adolescent and claiming to be a revolutionary fools no one.

Not to mention, it's counterproductive. Offending the very people who you need to win over is what this website would call being Too Dumb to Live.

It was an honor

@Starship: Except that orientation doesn't have anything to do with morals.

The point is, religion says "Our way is the only way, and if you don't do it our way you're wrong!" and then there's a bunch of bickering about what exactly "our way" is. Which is why I find it hypocritical.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

But it doesn't always say that. In many cases yes it does, however, this is not a universal and complete truth.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

DG, again, what precisely does this have to do with treating individual members on an individual basis?

It was an honor

@Starship: It doesn't. I'm just saying that's why I can't really respect religion.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

Jesus, I can't edit responses into my posts faster than you guys can make new ones. HEY STARSHIP! I'M REPLACING YOU AS THE GUY WHO HAS TO DEFEND SOMETHING AGAINST EVERYONE!

That's a good and happy example of a case where the symbolism perfectly matched the intent. The British did want an end to Ashanti sovereignty, and knew full well the ramification behind their request. Good on the Ashanti for resisting. What a waste of life. You are more precious than a cracker. Hell, the guy who named it his body died for you according to your own religious story! Why give up all you could do (in his name or not, all the same to me) for a cracker? While it's good that you don't get offended easily, Starship, I must say that your characterization of Myers is inaccurate. What he wants is very explicit, and he's stated it out clearly. It has nothing to do with upsetting people, though he holds the position (as do I) that some people just need to be offended, and regularly. Being dignified and polite doesn't mean being nice; both your examples are men who were masters of the Stealth Insult, and the out-in-the-open insult as well. Gandhi was the dude who when asked about Western civilization, said that he thought it would be a great idea. As for King, read some of his Letters from a Birmingham Jail for withering critiques of the churches who stood by the status quo.

If Myers had desecrated the cracker while never using any profanity or angry language to discuss the event, would it be okay with you?

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.

@Aon: Once again, I've yet to meet someone who's religion says "My way might not work out for you, but that's okay" without, once again, a bunch of bickering about whether or not that's true.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

Hm. So I suppose Aon and I are figments of our own imagination, then?

I'd be okay with him having his beef with religion without feeling the need to desecrate or otherwise interfere with people's religious ceremonies.

edited 13th Jun '12 3:19:36 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor

@Starship: Once again, there's a bunch of people who share your religion that think you're wrong. That's why I respect you and Aon, without respecting your religion.

edited 13th Jun '12 3:21:14 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

Oh come on now, we've spoken directly to each other on this forum often enough that I consider us "met." Don't I count?

Neopagans don't consider religion to be one-size-fits-all. That's why we don't proselytize—those who need to find us, will.

Stuff what I do.

I WANT TO BE THAT GUY TOO. EVEN THOUGH BEING THAT GUY SUCKS. A LOT.

Also hello again Anarcho-Buddhism. I'm not sure how I ended up finding you in google search again.

ALL I WISHED FOR WERE THINGS LIKE THE GIANT ASS WORLD MEETINGS OF BUDDHISTS FOR VESAK. The world summits held by the World Fellowship of Buddhists are interesting events with attendees from all of schools within all three of the major branches. There is also the World Buddhist Sangha Council. This being written for it.

There is also the World Buddhist Forum and similar such groups and events which have welcomed and accepted Buddhists of all schools and branches as well as non-Buddhists.

EDIT: I DID NOT NOTICE EDIT.

edited 13th Jun '12 3:26:12 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

I'm struggling not to regard this sentence with horror. I do not wish to offend, but I wholeheartedly agree with Taoist: the world would be a far poorer place for the absence of a unique human being such as yourself, whilst on the presumption that God exists, He remains unharmed by the actions of mortal men by dint of being omnipotent. So either way you slice it, that kind of sacrifice is beyond my comprehension. I'm not sure I want to comprehend it, in all honesty.

edited 13th Jun '12 3:25:56 PM by pagad

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.

Oh. Then we're on the same page. Although, those idiots have it twisted, I'm right and everybody knows it.

It was an honor

@Karalora: I've also met neopagans who were more pushy than the Charismatic/Evangelicals I grew up with. Once again, that's why I can respect you on an individual basis, but not respect the religion you're part of.

It's the same way that I can respect people who like anime even though I highly dislike it.

edited 13th Jun '12 3:25:09 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

Oh you edited the post. Sorry about that DG.

Oh shit I erased the portion about how I dislike that the Unifying what the hell lacks a point about other religions beyond Buddhism or a lack of it being fine and dandy too. So long as we aren't murderraping and so on.

edited 13th Jun '12 3:27:58 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

@Aon: S'ok, this thread moves quickly.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

While I agree with you and Taoist that I'd prefer Carc live a full life to old age, I also understand the desire to reach a level of dedication to your faith such that you're ready to defend it with your life.

Consider this, many LGBTQ people are willing to demonstrate similar steadfast resolve when one could say, "Why not just settle for a civil union?" or "What's the big deal in getting LGBTQ history taught in schools?", etc.

It was an honor

Indeed it does move fast...

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

@Starship: What does equal rights have to do with anything in this thread?

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

Zoroastrianism, again:

I see where you're coming from, but in those cases the sacrifices are for tangible improvements to the material world. They are matters of seeing injustice, and calling it out for what it is - and if they die, they die in the hopes of leaving a better world behind. If I saw a guy die for the sake of a piece of sacred bread, my reaction would probably be along the lines of "What a Senseless Waste of Human Life", especially since we would then see the piece of God's body succumb to natural decay at the hands of bacteria and mould, meaning it really was for nothing. If the guy was trying to rescue it from, say, a fire, I'd do all in my power to restrain the guy from throwing himself into the flames to retrieve it, and damn whatever he might think of me afterwards.

I'm going to bed now, so goodnight folks.

edited 13th Jun '12 3:36:41 PM by pagad

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.