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The Problem with Protecting the "Sacred"

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Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#126: Jun 13th 2012 at 1:45:02 PM

Matcha is good stuff. Makes for lovely flavoring too.

As for why you should be concerned about offending the religious...Because some of us religious people are pretty sweet and nice and stuff. It's more a "This person is awesome and I like people :D!" thing than a free pass that religious get. Since I feel it should be extended to people in general.

edited 13th Jun '12 1:47:26 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#127: Jun 13th 2012 at 1:45:30 PM

Religions should not indeed get any "free pass" that other subjects don't.

To make an example, insulting a nation or burning a flag is also an extremely rude action, and should not be done under any circumstance. One can certainly criticize a nation's politics, obviously; but on that subject too, if someone is not capable of criticizing while keeping a respectful tone then they are better off shutting up.

Also, coffee > tea. But jasmine tea with a lot of milk is pretty good.

edited 13th Jun '12 1:45:57 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
pagad Sneering Imperialist from perfidious Albion Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Sneering Imperialist
#128: Jun 13th 2012 at 1:45:38 PM

<british tea zealot ears twitch>

edited 13th Jun '12 1:46:07 PM by pagad

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.
Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#129: Jun 13th 2012 at 1:46:38 PM

No I damn well won't. Cream and sugar ruins the hell out of greens.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#130: Jun 13th 2012 at 1:54:15 PM

*Read last page or so, spits out delicious Earl Grey*

One more post about hot beverages and I'm pulling the off-topic thump club out of its sheath.

(It's such a sharp club that it needs to be sheathed when not in use.)

edited 13th Jun '12 1:55:05 PM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
pagad Sneering Imperialist from perfidious Albion Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Sneering Imperialist
#131: Jun 13th 2012 at 1:54:47 PM

Firstly, milk=/=cream.

Secondly, sugar? No thanks.

Thirdly, green? Bleurgh.

Fourthly, we've been over this in TTTD.

Fifthly, topic.

[up] Aieeee! Please don't batter me, sir!

edited 13th Jun '12 1:55:09 PM by pagad

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#132: Jun 13th 2012 at 1:55:35 PM

[up]I'm assuming that I ninja'd you so I'll let that one slide.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#133: Jun 13th 2012 at 1:55:51 PM

Also, coffee > tea. But jasmine tea with a lot of milk is pretty good.

Starship: Helm, lock phasers and torpedoes on Carciofus. Fire at will.

Helm: Sir, Admiral Best Of says if you keep up this derail, you'll be demoted to Lieutenant and forced to peel potatoes on Starbase 6.

Starship: Oh....um, belay that order then.

@DG: My point isn't that religion gets a free pass. But rather that it's the anti-religious who are getting a free pass; and I've stated and restated a million times that when the religion is Christianity, well then it's just open season.

If Gabe's professor stomped on a Quran or the Tripkata, he'd be fired damn near on the spot. Since it's the Bible..'Oh, he's simply brilliant and the sensitive Christian plebes can't handle it.' (this isn't Gabe's opinion or anyone else's I just dialed it up for effect).

Kirk Cameron or Manny Pacquiao can say they feel that homosexuality is wrong according to the Bible and GLAAD will have them shot, but you can call someone who's a Christian a nitwit or a 'retard' with little backlash.

As I've always said, just don't be hypocritical. I say this to fake Christians and I say it to those who feel to oppose Christianity by being rude and dickish.

edited 13th Jun '12 1:57:20 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#134: Jun 13th 2012 at 1:58:07 PM

Yeah, I'd rather they be treated equally, that is, any religious symbols. If one gets you in trouble, they all do.

As for Flags, they are not related to religion at all and have a different reason for why burning it is wrong. It's because it says you hate your country, and that can cause a lot more issues than dissing a religion.

Quest 64 thread
Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#135: Jun 13th 2012 at 2:01:20 PM

I'd love to see Gabe's professor stomping on the Tipitaka since the body of text is huge as shit and it'd be funny to see someone jumping into a pile of books for any reason really.

On that subject though I do wish that other religions were treated with the same level of knowledge and ire. Especially Buddhism which is like the vaguely spiritual I don't like Christianity go to faith. Which is bullshit if you take any time to really study and think about the religion and its history.

Milk not equaling cream...well no shit?

edited 13th Jun '12 2:03:04 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#136: Jun 13th 2012 at 2:01:31 PM

It's because it says you hate your country, and that can cause a lot more issues than dissing a religion.
Why? I am attached to my nation of origin; but I am far more attached to my religion...

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#137: Jun 13th 2012 at 2:01:40 PM

Well actually, I say, why be dickish at all? You want to disprove religion? Be my guest. Some of the best, brightest, and coolest people I know are hardcore atheists (Taoist comes to mind).

As for flag burning, I have the same feeling. The United States is still one of the most awesome nations in the history of awesome. Throwing a hissy fit and burning the flag impresses nobody and doesn't detract from America being great.

edited 13th Jun '12 2:02:13 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#138: Jun 13th 2012 at 2:04:22 PM

@Maxima: Unfortunately I have to disagree with that. In my experience, defacing a Quran is far more acceptable than defacing a Bible, and professing to be atheist is like admitting you murder puppies.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#139: Jun 13th 2012 at 2:05:55 PM

Well, can we agree that neither Bibles nor Qurans should be defaced, and that similarly atheists and their literary works should be treated with respect?

edited 13th Jun '12 2:06:10 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#140: Jun 13th 2012 at 2:08:02 PM

And in the end that depends largely on region and group. Mentioning that you're seriously Christian is a good way to get laughed at in some areas and insulting the faith and its followers is given a pass. In other cases it is not at all fine and instead atheism and other religions get the evil eye.

I will say that Islam gets some very harsh treatment everywhere I've been and around the world currently due to shit that is happening.

Then we can play the ever so fun game of "Is this a religion?" where Buddhism is king. It's also the HAPPY PERFECT WORLDVIEW OF NO WRONG.

dear fuck

^I can.

edited 13th Jun '12 2:08:19 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#141: Jun 13th 2012 at 2:08:42 PM

@Carc: And other people are the opposite, like me. If you seriously diss the place you live in, you might not be living there anymore. You can be evicted for complaining too much.

Where you live is rather important to, well, existing. I'm not saying your Religion isn't important at all, of course. Nor is that my intention to say it's not even equally important.

I'm saying that they're not all that comparable, as the reasons for doing them have far different consequences. Burning a Flag that you bought can send you to jail/leave you homeless. Burning a Holy Book(not referring to the Bible, specifically) at best could get some insults, or at the very worst, banned from your Church.

They're both bad things to do, just that they work differently and should be treated differently.

[up][up] I think I said that first? tongue Yeah, agreed.

edited 13th Jun '12 2:09:56 PM by Hydronix

Quest 64 thread
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#142: Jun 13th 2012 at 2:09:18 PM

@Carc: Of course we can agree to that.

@DG - Where the hell do you live?? [lol] Oklahoma City is a totally different universe from NYC it seems.

Off topic, your Thunder looked good yesterday.

@Irene - Thing is, in America at least, I love the fact that freedom allows even ingrate assholes to burn flags.

edited 13th Jun '12 2:11:39 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#143: Jun 13th 2012 at 2:10:42 PM

To the topic! *waves sword, leads the charge* TO THE TOPIC!

Just like the people who burn The Origin of the Species are sending a subtle, nuanced, cultured point against evolution?
Depends. I might be willing to burn it.

Okay, seriously, what's the issue with burning books? It's the attempt to prevent the spread of the ideas carried within. If you destroy the physical material, you haven't destroyed the idea, only limited access to it. In the age of the Internet, burning a book thus carries significantly less weight.

So I'd be willing to burn the Origin of Species. Several prominent New Atheists have, in similar protests. I'd throw the Tao Te Ching and The Elements of Style on the bonfire too, to throw in two other books that are very important. I'd do it just to show that I recognize the idea is the important thing, not the paper the idea is printed on.

Whether the message is intelligent or just mindless vandalism depends on the context. I'm reminded of the Crackergate incident, where noted atheist firebrand P. Z. Myers desecrated a communion wafer, and everyone went after his "hateful behaviour"...all never bothering to pay attention to the reason he desecrated the wafer in the first place. (For the record, a doubting Catholic failed to swallow the Communion wafer during mass, and spat it out. When he recounted this story, Catholics around the country started sending him death threats. Myers performed his protest as a way of saying "it's just a freaking cracker!")

Some of the best, brightest, and coolest people I know are hardcore atheists (Taoist comes to mind).

edited 13th Jun '12 2:19:27 PM by RadicalTaoist

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#144: Jun 13th 2012 at 2:10:54 PM

As for where I live. Southern California. In particular the Inland Empire. We have our very own Bible belt in the middle of the state and the most liberal crazy areas are up in the northern part of the state.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#145: Jun 13th 2012 at 2:13:31 PM

@Starship: That's why I got out of that hellhole as quickly as possible. tongue

Seriously though, that was the state where a kid got expelled from school for not joining in with the group prayer before a basketball game, and even though they sued the school district and won, they were run out of their community via death threats and vandalism for being atheist. And sadly, stuff like that was far from uncommon.

And it's stuff like that which is why I have a hard time being respectful towards religion. In my mind, it doesn't deserve any respect whatsoever.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#146: Jun 13th 2012 at 2:14:10 PM

If you ask me burning any book is a sign that you're afraid of the ideas within. I'm loathe to admit to being a coward, so therefore I wouldn't engage in that behavior.

It was an honor
Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#147: Jun 13th 2012 at 2:14:16 PM

@Maxima: I don't, really. Albeit, it is what you own, but it's still ridiculous to do either way.

I don't like the act, but I also don't like the overreaction to it. Both are bad.

Quest 64 thread
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#148: Jun 13th 2012 at 2:16:17 PM

Well, I'd probably accompany the book burning with a link on a big poster where you can download the material currently immolating. 21st century's here, folks; if I'm gonna be problematic with the hard copies at least help people get the files. Hell, in the time it would take a decent sized book to go up in flames, I could tell an audience my wifi password and instruct them on how to download a version of the text that they can view on their mobile device.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#149: Jun 13th 2012 at 2:16:23 PM

. I'm reminded of the Crackergate incident, where noted atheist firebrand P. Z. Myers desecrated a communion wafer, and everyone went after his "hateful behaviour"...all never bothering to pay attention to the reason he desecrated the wafer in the first place. (For the record, a doubting Catholic failed to swallow the Communion wafer during mass, and spat it out. When he recounted this story, Catholics around the country started sending him death threats. Myers performed his protest as a way of saying "it's just a freaking cracker!"
Honestly? If that was a consecrated communion wafer, then yes, that is a major blasphemy. If he had just said "it's just a freaking craker", fair enough — he would have been wrong, I believe, but that would have been a legitimate opinion.

I would not send death threats to such a person, or to anybody else; but I would absolutely refuse to have anything to do with him, and yes, that behaviour offends me greatly. And if you know something about Catholic beliefs about the Eucharist, you know why I am reacting in this way.

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#150: Jun 13th 2012 at 2:18:48 PM

And that's just one region, DG. And just one expression. Both the good and the bad and the various differences in religion and how it is practiced based on religion and sect are incredibly important in developing what I consider to be a fair and informed opinion on the religion.

This holds for other matters as well. Such as the veracity of a family member's claim of being wronged by someone else. Or the truth of some study. Or the very axioms you yourself use. Everything must be looked at, analyzed, studied, compared with other information, and, if we can, tested personally. With calmness and objectivity.

^I feel similarly about our various water blessings. If you don't believe in it or are doubting please for the love god just don't touch the water cups. Leave them be. This is fine. This is polite. This is what pretty much every non-theistic and non-Buddhist person in our temple does with the situation.

edited 13th Jun '12 2:21:06 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

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