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The Problem with Protecting the "Sacred"

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RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#226: Jun 13th 2012 at 5:50:40 PM

Then replace "justifiable" with "context-appropriate". Swinging a hammer is a very different action depending on whether a nail or a human face is at the end of the arc.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#227: Jun 13th 2012 at 5:51:51 PM

See the thing is, instead of trying to purge the class by excessively offending a targeted subset, just make it clear that all ethical reasoning will have to be made from the outside standpoint of the frameworks being studied because that's the point of the class. If they bible thump anyway, mark them down. This is not rocket science.

edited 13th Jun '12 5:53:18 PM by Pykrete

Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#228: Jun 13th 2012 at 5:53:29 PM

@ Ira, I could turn that very same statement against religious figures. Martyrdom is the first thing in my head.

I don't see how anyone can justify dying for their invisible friend?

(See how subjective that can get very quickly?)

If I wanted, I could use that whole line of thinking to make all religion wrong.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
IraTheSquire Since: Apr, 2010
#229: Jun 13th 2012 at 5:56:53 PM

Then replace "justifiable" with "context-appropriate". Swinging a hammer is a very different action depending on whether a nail or a human face is at the end of the arc.

Bad comparison. The difference between swinging a hammer onto a nail or a human face is very different as in this case the nature of the two differs due to their different direct outcomes (one hurts a human's well being and and the other doesn't). Since when does ripping out books and being childish, regardless of intentions, is still ripping out books and ring childish. The outcome's the same. I don't see why the fact that he's making a point is any relevant to the fact that his actions are innappropriate for a professor, when there are other more mature ways to achieve the same goal.

It's more like "swinging a hammer at someone's face because I feel like it" and "swinging a hammer at someone's face because I can to show how awesome my hammer swinging skills are". Is it appropriate for me to show off by hurting other people when I can do the same thing without doing so?

edited 13th Jun '12 6:09:26 PM by IraTheSquire

Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#230: Jun 13th 2012 at 6:10:15 PM

BUT MY INVISIBLE FRIEND LIVED AND WE HAVE OBSESSIVE DETAILS ON HIS APPEARANCE AND HOW HOT HE WAS (the Tipitaka can be quite...strange when talking about the Buddha).

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#232: Jun 13th 2012 at 6:13:21 PM

He reputedly had magic forehead eyeball heat rays or some shit so possibly. Along with teleportion and phasing through physical objects.

BECAUSE HE KNEW ABOUT ATOMS AND WAS LIKE BEST BROS WITH THEM.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
IraTheSquire Since: Apr, 2010
#233: Jun 13th 2012 at 6:30:56 PM

In other word:

He's chargin his lazor?

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#234: Jun 13th 2012 at 6:32:17 PM

Until Buddha can turn water into chardonnay then he's just second fiddle to my guy.

It was an honor
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#235: Jun 13th 2012 at 6:43:09 PM

Everybody is secondary to the one true Banjo. winktongue

IraTheSquire Since: Apr, 2010
#236: Jun 13th 2012 at 6:47:46 PM

Or the Exalted.

Those who disagree can argue with their fists.

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#237: Jun 13th 2012 at 6:57:20 PM

[lol] Seriously, we should knock it off before Best Of comes back with trusty topic bat.

It was an honor
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#238: Jun 13th 2012 at 7:31:02 PM

Pykrete: I wish I could say that university students would not ignore that in the first few classes and then file discrimination complaints to the department later in the year. But I'll agree it's not essential to teaching that particular subject.

Ira: You're still defining "childish" as "offensive" and "mature" as "inoffensive". If you don't see why context is relevant, then we're just going to be speaking past each other here.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
IraTheSquire Since: Apr, 2010
#239: Jun 13th 2012 at 7:53:01 PM

Now you're putting words into my mouth. I'm just saying that ripping books apart and making an ass out of oneself is childish. What kind of book is being ripped apart is totally irrelevant. And Bible is just a book and I don't see how ripping the Bible is any more offensive than ripping the first edition of Dn D signed by Gray Gaynx.

What would you say if the Professor pulls out a gun and shoots a student in the head for bible thumping? Nothing can put his point across more than that, no?

edited 13th Jun '12 7:56:01 PM by IraTheSquire

Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#240: Jun 13th 2012 at 8:08:16 PM

Oh my god chill.

He didn't rip a book. He stomped on it. And guess what? In the over 20 years he's been teaching- not one complaint. No student reported any misconduct, no one ran to the president, nothing. Anyone who had a problem with it just dropped the class.

Honestly, when I show him this thread I think he'll probably laugh his ass off. Because you're missing the point. You're focusing on the what, and not the why, which is the very thing he teaches against!

You're being the student who storms out without thinking instead of considering there is so much more than what may be apparent at first!

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
IraTheSquire Since: Apr, 2010
#241: Jun 13th 2012 at 9:07:57 PM

storms out without thinking instead of considering there is so much more than what may be apparent at first!

Maybe so. But I wouldn't give a damn if there's anything more to it if what I see is something that I deem wrong and inappropriate. Just like I wouldn't care if there's anything more to it when I know someone had murdered somebody. I'll still condemn the action, regardless.

edited 13th Jun '12 9:09:02 PM by IraTheSquire

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#242: Jun 13th 2012 at 9:18:11 PM

Gabe, honestly, he might be the coolest professor there is. But stomping on a Bible is beneath a professor of his stature. That he has a really good point in doing it makes it worse not better. There are more effective ways to teach objective and non-biased thinking, and I'd think a respected academic could find them rather easily.

It was an honor
Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#243: Jun 13th 2012 at 9:21:58 PM

It's a bit ridiculous, but the intent is a major issue. The intent was not to offend people. Not the best act, but I wouldn't bat an eyebrow either. It could've been any freakin' important book in any possible way(Literature).

It's not the best way, but it's a stomp on a book. That's all it is overall.

Quest 64 thread
IraTheSquire Since: Apr, 2010
#244: Jun 13th 2012 at 9:26:52 PM

It's not the best way, but it's a stomp on a book. That's all it is overall.

That's what we're saying, really. It's just that it is also something that is beneath the professor, that is all.

Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#245: Jun 13th 2012 at 9:30:08 PM

To akin stepping on a book to murder is a little extreme don't you think?

Consider this "what": Jesus died on a cross. So? Tons of people died on crosses. The Romans would line the streets with them.

More important is the "why": Depending on your faith and feelings, you can give any answer from political malfunction, to social stigma, to salvation of sins. The "why" is most often the driving force that moves us.

If you are going to study things like ethics, religion, justice, and what it means to be human, you will be forced to confront both beautiful and horrific events. You can't just close your head and put up walls or else you won't see what else is building and adding to that "why". If you can't see all the pieces, how can you change the action?

The same faiths that bring us saints, miracles, art, and expression have also brought pain, misery, destruction, and suffering. If I only focused on the "what" I could walk away damning humans as fuck ups and just decide to either live with the absurdity or commit suicide as Camus suggested. Or I can investigate the "why" and see what the motivations of the people are, the contributing factors, the perspectives of the involved people, and in doing so, I can help it.

Thinking in this manner is not instinctual for most people. It needs to be conditioned and disciplined. I am not near as good as I would like to be in applying critical thinking like this. But I hope by the time I get my doctorate, I will be closer.

One professor doing one action may mean nothing. But I promise every kid that was there and stayed, gained something from it. To a professor, even only one is worth their entire career because that one maybe the next brilliant thinker who pushes our field forward.

This line of thinking isn't just a benefit for the humanities: scientists, biologists, physicists, engineers, all are going to come across something that initally bothers them. And they need to be able to push through and solve the problems.

As a cancer researcher how they feel about stem cells. There just might be some that say we can find a cure there. There will be others who say it's blasphemy and that area of biology is sacred. It is only in asking "why" not always "what" that we can start to answer these questions and judge accordingly.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#246: Jun 13th 2012 at 9:32:26 PM

Being "beneath him" really doesn't sound like something going crazy about.

Especially when it's not honestly a terrible act. Just a facepalm worthy one.

I might agree if he ripped the book or something. But you can clear off dust, etc.

Quest 64 thread
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#247: Jun 13th 2012 at 9:33:52 PM

I take it further to say that when anybody, Christian or Buddhist, atheist or agnostic, communist or capitalist, whatever, engages in actively offending people, it's damaging all around.

It starts a chain reaction of "Well, if you're going to disrespect me, then I'm going to disrespect you." An exchange in which it is clear one party is actively trying to demonstrate decorum and respect opens the door to dialogue, which in turn leads to mutual understanding, which hopefully leads to alliance.

To a professor, even only one is worth their entire career because that one maybe the next brilliant thinker who pushes our field forward.

Well Gabrael, the very thing you're talking about here is a very Christian concept. Consider the parable of the shepherd who went beyond his way to recover just one wayward sheep.

As a Christian, it's worth even our very lives just to demonstrate God's love and compassion in such a way that even one person says "Damn, I don't understand that Bible-thumping, but that Christian is so freakin' awesome, I must check it out." And that's why you have people like me, Loni, Carc, Joey, and even non-Christians like Aon who are willing to bend over backwards to be civil and understanding.

I'm not saying your professor shouldn't stomp on the Bible so that he won't hurt our fragile feelings. I'm saying there're students out there who'll listen to a professor being civil and that'll make the difference.

edited 13th Jun '12 9:41:18 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#248: Jun 13th 2012 at 9:37:34 PM

Pykrete: I wish I could say that university students would not ignore that in the first few classes and then file discrimination complaints to the department later in the year. But I'll agree it's not essential to teaching that particular subject.

When I had to take ethics, on the first day the prof covered 5-6 approaches, four of which we covered in depth over the next several weeks. He briefly brought up religious command as one of the others, then said we wouldn't be studying it simply because it didn't lend itself well to the kind of analysis the class was talking about, and those schools of thought were the domain of religious studies anyhow.

No problems whatsoever.

edited 13th Jun '12 9:39:17 PM by Pykrete

Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#249: Jun 13th 2012 at 9:54:37 PM

Intent, while important, is only one factor in the equation. The others being action, circumstance, and reaction. Judging by the circumstances it's not in the same class as someone who is stomping on Bibles just because they hate them and want to hurt someone's feelings. At the same time I feel there are likely other less harsh ways in which to teach such lessons. If we can we should always go for the most effective and least offensive method. Reduction and prevention of harm along with the teaching and helping of others is what I view to be the purpose of my existence. I have no other reason to live but that.

My own happiness and self worth are derived from my ability to succeed in that. I also believe that my own personal happiness and well being are equally important as the well being and happiness of other living beings. If I do choose to favor myself for the moment it is to get myself to a position in which I am better able to help others.

I'd like to become a professor myself. Or perhaps a therapist. In the case of stomping on books as a way to prove a point to a philosophy or religious studies class, the two subjects I am interested in teaching though from a mostly specifically Buddhist standpoint, I personally would like to avoid such a method if I could not find a more peaceful yet similarly effective method of teaching the point. If I can avoiding the suffering of others is to be chosen. If I cannot the action must be taken in a detached fashion with understanding of why it must be performed. Such as with exposure therapy for people with phobias.

edited 13th Jun '12 9:55:45 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
IraTheSquire Since: Apr, 2010
#250: Jun 13th 2012 at 9:59:36 PM

@ Gab: You miss the point. This isn't about how offensive stomping the Bible is. This is about how this in of itself is a childish thing to do (so what if you stomp the Bible?) in terms of social conventions and how people expect professors and other professionals to behave. You don't swear while teaching or giving the speech in front of the president now, do you?

Being "beneath him" really doesn't sound like something going crazy about.

Especially when it's not honestly a terrible act. Just a facepalm worthy one.

Yeah, but it seems that we cannot agree on whether it is even a facepalm-worthy action.


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