Marvel Comics General

And yet, that characterization of Clint Barton as a killer vigilante made it to the MCU.

Ultimate Secret Wars

I mean, only after his entire family died. And it's pretty clear that he still doesn't like doing it. And also he stops doing it.

You know, aside from all of those things.

The upcoming Disney Plus Hawkeye series is borrowing from Matt Fraction's famous Hawkeye series with David Aja. And Fraction's Hawkeye has had a bigger impact on Clint's status in 616 and wider comics culture than Ultimate Hawkeye did.

Hawkeye as a sad white f—kup who defends the neighborhood from the Russian mafia while houserooming his freeloading brother Barney and his young apprentice/legacy Katie Kate is the Hawkeye you want.

I was talking about 616 Hawkeye, from the Bendis era. Killer and with the Ronin identity, that's the one I said made it to the MCU. But yes, the Ultimate one is also in the mix, as the reason for his change (the exact same reason said above).

As for the Disney series, I know that it is named "Hawkeye", but is Renner (Clint Barton) the protagonist? I understood that it would be based on Kate Bishop instead. Barton may have been demoted to support character, as Pym in the Ant man films (or worse, demoted to special guest appearance). We'll have to wait and see.

Ultimate Secret Wars

No, it was pretty much Ultimate Hawkeye straight up. Even Bendis' Hawkeye wasn't as dull as dishwater.

Doctor Who — Long Way Around: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13536044/1/Doctor-Who-Long-Way-Around

Well, whatever. If you want to say that the second highest grossing film of all time took inspiration from The Ultimates, who am I to deny it?

Ultimate Secret Wars

That is not what I said and you know it.

Doctor Who — Long Way Around: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13536044/1/Doctor-Who-Long-Way-Around

I don't understand why you post here just to argue and agitate people, Grigor. It's fine if you're a huge fan of Ultimates but it feels like you only post to spite people.

Or to troll them. Either one works.

Doctor Who — Long Way Around: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13536044/1/Doctor-Who-Long-Way-Around

In case you didn't notice, I was talking about Ronin hawkeye, and it was Santa who bringed Ultimate Hawkeye to the discussion.

In any case, Hawkeye's modern depiction in comics is not based on Ronin hawkeye, Ultimate hawkeye or Fraction's hawkeye, but in the "Hawkeye is useless" meme. Each time he shows up somewhere (Avengers West Coast, Dead Man Logan, No Road Home), the others make fun of him and how useless he is, and humilliate him in several ways. For example, in NRH Rocket saw Kate and called her "the real hawkeye"

Ultimate Secret Wars

Well Clint doesn’t become a complete psychopath in Endgame so I don’t much of his Ultimate-self was used as inspiration.

I mean let’s be real, guy who loses his family & goes on a rampage is a pretty typical motivation for the most part. It doesn’t have to be inspired from a particular point.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

Of course, that goes without saying. If you want to deny the influence of a work, you can always point that each one of the ideas in it has already been used elsewhere in some degree.

For example: what makes you think that the upcoming series will be based on Fraction's run? Common thiefs instead of supervillains? Duh, I have seen it in Daredevil and Gotham. Old and dated superhero trains young and badass superhero? Duh, I have seen it in The mask of Zorro, Batman Beyond and even into the Spider-verse. And so on...

Ultimate Secret Wars

Well if it has specific elements from a particular run then yes it most likely is inspired by that run.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

...

I'm going to keep quoting that until you address it personally, just so you know. Or until you stop doing it.

Edited by kkhohoho on May 18th 2019 at 6:54:31 AM

Doctor Who — Long Way Around: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13536044/1/Doctor-Who-Long-Way-Around

All I care about is we're getting Kate Bishop. I just hope she's more like her comic version than Barton was. He was so frigging bland. I want Kate to be quippy and kinda dorky, and She Tries.

X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.

Shit if were're getting Loser-Hawkeye might as well make it Kate completely.

Clint pretty much has none of his humorous traits or flaws so it be a good idea to unload those traits onto Kate to make her sorta a composite Character.

It be good to have a loser female protagonist.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

There are two influences that Ultimate Hawkeye made to the MCU:

1. He was a black-ops Agent of SHIELD.
2. He had a wife and three children.

And that's pretty much it. Ultimate Hawkeye was borderline sociopathic — his family was pretty much what kept him in check and when Black Widow killed his family (yes, Ultimate Black Widow murdered his entire family for shits and giggles, thank you, Mark Millar), he pretty much became a full blown sociopath, killing Black Widow, and having a full on death wish.

The great thing about the MCU is that Hawkeye's family comes back. He gets to have a happy ending. He doesn't end up like Ultimate Hawkeye.

There are two big things that MCU Hawkeye takes from 616 Hawkeye, however:

1. Empathy.
2. The ability to recognize that he's just a guy with a bow and arrow fighting alongside the freaking Avengers against, like, hordes of aliens or robots. He knows it doesn't make sense, but he does it anyway. Like Fraction's Hawkeye says, "You cowboy around with the Avengers some. Guys got, what, armor. Magic. Super-powers. Super-strength. Shrink-dust. Grow-rays. Magic. Healing factors. I’m an orphan raised by carnies fighting with a stick and a string from the Paleolithic era."

Edited by alliterator on May 18th 2019 at 6:46:24 AM

But dammit! He makes it work.

One Strip! One Strip!

Both versions have that one in common. In the first Ultimates arc he laughed with Fury of their career, from their humble origins to giving orders to Captain America and the God of Thunder.

In any case, and except for a Lower-Deck Episode here and there, Hawkeye has always been a secondary character. In 616, in Ultimate Marvel and in the MCU. Adapting him being a black-ops agent with a family is not "just" that, that was basically all there was about him. Note that his non-Ultimate aspects (being a jockester and his purple suit with the wolverine mask) were absent, so it is safe to say that MCU Hawkeye is Ultimate Hawkeye.

As for his family, yes, in UM they never come back. But that speaks better of Ultimate Hawkeye: he gets past the rage and have his character rerailment without a magical resurrection involved.

Fraction's run is not just a good run, but one of the very few (if not the only one) runs with Hawkeye as the protagonist, and with a standalone context (an advantage over the Ultimate Hawkeye mini and the Old Man Hawkeye one). So of course that they would take some things from it.

Ultimate Secret Wars

616 Hawkeye isn't just a jokester — again, his whole thing is that he has empathy, something that Ultimate Hawkeye lacks. Even if Ultimate Hawkeye gets over his deathwish, he's still a borderline sociopath, unlike the 616 and MCU Hawkeyes.

Hell, MCU Hawkeye was ordered to kill Black Widow and made a different choice, bringing her in instead. If that had been Ultimate Hawkeye, he would have simply killed her.

Edited by alliterator on May 18th 2019 at 7:34:04 AM

Hawkeye's Thing was feeling entitled to women and respect and also a near crippling infuriating complex

He once rage quit the Avengers because the One Girl decided to date someone else. Once his bow string snapped and he felt so sad about this that he guzzled some random chemicals that Hank Pym left in a locker.

Presumably he matured at some point. Matured and/or collapsed under the weight of his own neuroses and became an ambulatory trashfire.

I think it probably happened when he came back to life after dying in Disassembled and gloated about how cool his death was and everyone else called him a moron and he realized 'shit that was dumb' and sank into a depression from which he has not emerged.

Anyway, Hawkeye is fun and the fact that he's such a self-sabotaging person makes the big successes he accomplishes all the more impressive

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

Hawkeye's main thing is being the bad-ass normal in a team of supers. Without that you have no group dynamics in the Avengers. Like that bit in Endgame where Hawkeye tells Thor, "I know I'm a little out of my wheelhouse" or when he briefly has that giddy happy grin at travelling in space, that kind of touches would be lost if you had an entire super-team.

The Avengers have had badass normals going all the way back to the original team with Iron Man and Ant-Man. Clint isn't exactly special in that regard and others arguably bring more to the team than him. Him saying he's "out of his wheel house" kind of makes him sound incompetent when neither Tony nor Natasha is depicted as that insecure.

Um, having an Iron Man suit and having the ability to shrink aren't normal. Badass Normal doesn't mean "no inherent powers," it means "no powers period." Black Widow is a Badass Normal; Iron Man is not.

And Black Widow said repeatedly in The Avengers 1 she's uncomfortable being around supers, "This is nothing that we've been trained for". And she went on a space mission with Cap and Rhodey at the start of Endgame that Barton wasn't there for, so she had more experience than Clint when he participated and said, "This is a long way from Budapest."

IIRC Ultimate Hawkeye apparently had a line where it said he had genetic augmentation to improve his accuracy and am. So Ult. Barton isn't a Badass Normal either.