Black Panther

Why not just make Kraven part of the Klaue's original group that raided Wakanda.

He kept a little vibranium for himself and parted ways with Klaue, but he also got his hands on the Heart Shaped Herb back then as well, and with the info T'chaka's bro supplied, was able to figure out how to cultivate some for himself.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Jul 16th 2018 at 1:12:17 PM

Not to nitpick, but that was the actual Kraven. Alyosha Kravinov◊ fought Black Panther during Christopher Priest's run, but during "Man Without Fear", it's the resurrected Sergei who fights T'Challa. See here◊ for the confirmation of which Kraven it is.

The fact that both Sergei and Alyosha have always had the lion as their most prominent Animal Motif only makes the contrast with T'Challa even stronger. They're also more equal power wise. While I'm not sure I'd want Kraven to face T'Challa too often in the comics, there's definite potential adaptation wise.

Edited by AmbarSonofDeshar on Jul 16th 2018 at 12:23:24 PM

Man, is it just me, or does Spidey's Rogues Gallery have some of the greatest transplant potential.

People have been poaching his enemies for other heroes galleries for years:

Kingpin, Rhino, Arcade, Sandman, etc.

Does Marvel have the rights to Kraven, though?

He's a Spider-Man villain through and through. I don't know the details but I assumed that Sony still owns Spidey's rogues (given the Venom movie and Silver and Black).

They don't. That's why Coogler had to give up on the idea of using him.

Shit.

So they can't use any Spidey rogues outside of Spidey movies then huh?

That's a shame.

I know.

The only thing I could see Kraven doing in a Panther movie is appearing as a mercenary out to take down T’Challa, basically an Elite Mook since no Black Panther movie has any business being about a merc hunting him down, and which is a role the first movie already uses besides - Killmonger pretends to be that way before revealing himself to be an even more weighty character partway through.

I feel like the “they’re both jungle men from Africa!” connection is a little tenuous, tbh. Especially since while comics T’Challa is that way sometimes, film T’Challa isn’t really. I'm not too disappointed we didn't get him.

The article doesn’t say. All we know is that Cooler asked to use Kraven and top brass said no.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 16th 2018 at 1:46:32 AM

The link's stronger than that. I'll quote myself: "As ex-Russian nobility turned Great White Hunter obsessed with the "primitive purity" of Africa when compared to what he sees as the decadent corruption of the West, Kraven actually makes a solid counter to T'Challa, king of Africa's most technologically advanced nation, on several levels."

That phrasing paints their connection more as "colonizer vs colonized," which is for one not really something Kraven is about, for another not really something the Black Panther movie series is really interested in being about, and as a third is again something that if they were planning to run with, there's other characters that can fill that niche while bringing a stronger connection to T'Challa himself.

Heck, from an overarching point of view Killmonger again did the "invader who believes he knows what Africa should be about vs local who actually knows what the reality of the continent is" already.

Note that Coogler, at least according to the interview, didn't want to use Kraven because of the perceived contrast in the first place. He wanted to use him because he was a huge fan of the character, and because the fight scene between him and T'Challa in the Priest run - which thus lends to the idea that the usage of Kraven would ultimately be a physical contrast between the two (that is, as s set up to a jungle fight a la Tarzan), rather than an ideological one.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 16th 2018 at 2:08:43 AM

So here's a question for those familiar with the comics, who do you think should be the villain for the sequel? I'm haven't read a whole bunch of Black Panther comics, but it seems like the movie used up most of T'Challa's most notable foes. Klaue and Killmonger are both dead, and M'Baku received a considerable case of Adaptational Heroism. Looking over the Characters page for the comics, Solomon Prey, Tetu, or Zenzi look like they would be good candidates for villains in a Black Panther sequel. Any thoughts?

Edited by chasemaddigan on Jul 16th 2018 at 5:29:01 AM

They can't really use White Wolf, sadly, which is a shame because he's one of the rogues gallery's better villains.

While I don't disagree that there are other characters they can use, I have to disagree with the notion that that's not something Kraven is really about. His whole Great White Hunter routine is driven by a belief that the current state of civilization is one of decadence and decay, and that the primal wilds of Africa—and later the Savage Land—are the only places where purity and honour can still be found. He applies an African version of the "noble savage" stereotype that often gets slapped onto Native Americans, and there's a lot you could do with that. Do I think the series is poorer without him? Probably not, but I can't agree that there's no connection you can work with.

Edited by AmbarSonofDeshar on Jul 16th 2018 at 2:49:28 AM

That summation right there is why, put simply, Kraven is a "jungle man," and why that's the only real thing his entry into the Black Panther mythos could bring. That's really is his whole thing: his whole ideology is about the law of the jungle, about its superiority over the complacency of modern society, and about the hunter/hunted or man vs beast narrative in general.

T'Challa in the comics at times deals with similar ideas, of the balance between natural laws and the prosperity of man, which is the only reason why the contrast works there. The first time we see Black Panther in the film, fighting people in the darkest wilds as much a part of the environment as his namesake, is much more common in the comics - especially during the Priest run (later runs have rather left it behind).

But in any case, there they can meet up with one another, in the jungle, and duke it out to show whose perceptions of the contrast between man and nature is superior. But that's blatantly the only thing they have in common, and on that front there's the problem that film T'Challa isn't like that at all (comics T'Challa, again, has moved away from it as well). He has the spirit of the panther, but neither his character nor his story is about that animal nature, and given the kinds of themes the film dealt with suddenly making subsequent stories about that would arguably be a step backward for the character.

Whenever it gets brought up, Achebe gets mentioned a lot. And yeah, I think given where Wakanda was at the end of the last movie and possibly where Infinity War left it that should be a good place to take them.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 16th 2018 at 2:59:00 AM

What if Kraven provides such a challenge to T’Challa, pushing him to his most absolute physical & mental limits that he starts asking more from the Panther God & gives in to its beastly nature more than any Black Panther before?

Though that story might seem a bit personal & small time for the rather kingly, entire nation setting the films are going for.

Plus T’Challa has a pretty good support group that might prevent such dangerous experiments.

Although it would make him a fairly different character, I could see Kraven fairly easily being made similar to (but more villainous than) the comics' Hunter/White Wolf, both in terms of the Mighty Whitey deconstruction and in terms of being a Poisonous Friend/ Psycho Supporter who is too ruthless. The latter isn't the most well-known aspect of Kraven's character, but I'm thinking of how in the "Kraven's Last Hunt" storyline, his version of being a "better" Spider-Man after he seemingly kills Peter is to become a brutal vigilante.

The way I'd love for Kraven to be introduced in the MCU is to first show him in a flashback (similarly to what was done with Vulture in Homecoming), where he's a game warden and being disrespected by some asshole big game hunter tourists who kill animals without any skill or "honor" (who may or may not have some similarity to the Trump brothers), and then proceeds to "hunt" them in a darkly humorous Mook Horror Show type scene. I want to get at the inherent ridiculousness of Kraven's shtick but also show him as being frightening.

Edited by Hodor2 on Jul 16th 2018 at 5:10:45 AM

I think the best thing to do for Kraven would be to save him for if and when mutants get introduced into the MCU, especially if we see something like the Morlocks. If there's a film about mutants suddenly introduced to a fearful world, then the idea that people aren't even sure if they're human, aliens or monsters would be a great set-up for Kraven: him being a Starter Villain mutant hunter embodying the mindset of "these aren't people, they're beasts, and I'm going to hunt them down."

Basically what he was doing in the Ultimate universe before meeting Spidey, iirc

It's what he was introduced doing with Spider-Man in the main comics as well, which has always made less and less sense in that series the more Spidey was fleshed out as a character.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 16th 2018 at 4:15:36 AM

A really interesting think piece on Wakanda and why it is actually extremely unrealistic. Though you could argue against it that Wakanda kept other people out, it didn't exactly cut itself off from outside knowledge, it certainly make a good point about the actual effects isolationist policies tend to have.

> A really interesting think piece on Wakanda and why it is actually extremely unrealistic.

Well dur it's from comic of course its going to be 'extremely unrealistic' are they going to claim superheros are aren't realistic either?

Sure, but it relevant because it is a myth which gets peddled in politics, too. And there is certainly nothing wrong with pointing this out.

I'm sorry, but that's really goddamn unhelpful. I loathe "well it's a comic book so it can be unrealistic."

Fantastic settings can still have verisimilitude. Just because I accept a man having spider powers doesn't mean I have to accept, say, peoples' behaviors making no sense or a work breaking its own internal consistency or rules of economics.

Look,I can agree no nation on Earth could survive in complete isolation,but when your nation is advanced as Wakanda it turns things on it's head,the normal way we think of economics don't necessarily apply,and there's questions about how they keep their citizens fed,they're perfectly valid questions to ask.

It's just when I see videos like "X is soo unrealistic" I just think "Couldn't you suspend your disbelief and enjoy the film?"

There's a reward offered to the first reporter who asks Trump (with a straight face) about America's relationship with Wakanda and gets it recorded. There are bonuses for asking about "granting asylum to the terrorist fugitive James Buchanan Barnes" and "harboring known war criminal Steve Rogers."

...

He really is stupid enough to not realize they are messing with him isn't he?

I look forward to seeing who has the guts to do it first.

Lol...I would love to see that. I don't think that any reporter would do it, but it would be great.

I imagine someone will do it eventually and they'll be like "I was joking about the money part!"