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Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#201: Feb 17th 2018 at 11:51:50 AM

[up] Not really, the Wakandans have limited contact with the outside world and a limited number of agents outside of Wakanda itself. They only learned about him this time because he made himself known as a vibranium seller.

A living computer like Ultron, or the guy who designed his programs to begin with, are bound to be better at finding people than Wakanda is.

RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer
#202: Feb 17th 2018 at 11:55:04 AM

wild mass guessThe Wakandan Hanuman is entirely unrelated to the Indian Hanuman and their similarities are coincidental. Wakandan Hanuman is an ape while Indian Hanuman is a monkey. Wakandan Hanuman is associated with ice (?) while Indian Hanuman is associated with fire.

Continue writing our story of peace.
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#203: Feb 17th 2018 at 11:55:25 AM

Did anyone else find it kinda funny that Klaue successfully evaded the Wakandans for decades and yet the Avengers and Ultron both found him in like 10 minutes?

That was one of the weirdest plot developments in Age of Ultron.

"Ultron stole and deleted all our computer files. We have no idea where he's headed next."

"So how will we find him?"

"Opening hundreds of random paper files and just guessing."

edited 17th Feb '18 11:56:20 AM by Tuckerscreator

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#204: Feb 17th 2018 at 1:36:06 PM

Anyway, my thoughts on the movie.

Fantastic! Everything everyone's already praised, the costuming, the city, the mythology, the fleshed out supporting cast, it's amazing. Princess Shuri is perfect and now I'm even more upset that she's not in the upcoming Marvel Rising: Secret Warriors cast. Maybe I should start a petition.

Something I found noteworthy is that the film is actually a lot like what I hoped the movie Tomorrowland would be. It's a story set in a utopian setting, that inspires viewers through its culture and technology, examines its setting's flaws without tearing down its society, and ends with a concrete intervention for improvement of the whole world in the future. The actual Tomorrowland film and its tie-ins had this weird obsession with not letting the story take place in Tomorrowland, so it's great to see this film show how to tell a utopian story the right way. And I want to see even more!

Regarding Killmonger, I had caught some light spoilers earlier about how his character wants to use Wakandian technology for the salvation of black peoples across the world, and was worried about how that might be portrayed. I've grown to dislike Well-Intentioned Extremist villains because they're usually used to dismiss legitimate criticisms of a setting's status quo. Then they turn out to be hypocrites and are remorselessly killed off. Ultron is a big example of this. And since Ta-Nehisi Coates's BP comics have tended to use the Full-Circle Revolution trope over and over and over again (I like them, but their overuse of this trope starts to feel self-loathing after a while), I was worried about the potential for damage.

But thankfully, this film carefully avoided all that. Killmonger is given an enormous amount of sympathy, and T'Challa's recognizes that he is right; Wakanda needs to change, and their great power means great responsibility. It also avoids making Killmonger solely an oppressed victim lashing out, which could be right out of a right-wing "black people are taking their civil rights activism too far" fantasy. His military history in overthrowing foreign states makes him as much a product of American imperialism as it does Wakandan isolationism. So I see less of a parallel with "oh no, Black Lives Matter gone too far", and more with previous cases of "imperialism to 'fix' imperialism", like America's wars in the Middle East, or China in Africa, or the Spaniards against the Aztecs. So overall, a ton of praise to Michael B. Jordan and Ryan Coogler for Killmonger's acting and writing.

I look forward to Black Panthers 2 through 10.

edited 17th Feb '18 1:57:43 PM by Tuckerscreator

Gault Laugh and grow dank! from beyond the kingdom Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: P.S. I love you
Laugh and grow dank!
#205: Feb 17th 2018 at 1:52:20 PM

[up] A lot of people are saying that Killmonger is portrayed as a sympathetic villain, and to an extent that's true, but I think the movie makes it pretty clear that T'Challa and Eric are working towards two very different sets of goals. There were things that T'Challa learned from Killmonger, sure, but I don't think he ever actually agreed with him. T'Challa calls him a "monster of our own creation", so while he acknowledges that Wakanda needs to change it's outlook on the rest of the world, he sees Eric and his plan as a threat to this new direction he wants his country to take- and he's right.

However, this kind of conflict was handled in a more interesting and nuanced way than I would have initially expected, that's definitely true. If it had gone any of the usual ways, it would have had me rolling my eyes.

edited 17th Feb '18 1:54:21 PM by Gault

yey
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#206: Feb 17th 2018 at 1:58:10 PM

Killmonger was basically trying to kick-start a world-war.

As well as the heavy implication it was more to burn the world & taking everyone with him than actually trying to help anyone.

So as sympathetic as he is he is most definitely not in the right.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#207: Feb 17th 2018 at 2:00:26 PM

It's both. Erik is right that Wakanda needs to share what it has, but a threat because he'd do it by military means. Nakia from the start has a much more reasonable version of his philosophy that T'challa warms up to, without Peace Through Superior Firepower.

Gault Laugh and grow dank! from beyond the kingdom Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: P.S. I love you
Laugh and grow dank!
#208: Feb 17th 2018 at 2:12:15 PM

[up][up] Right.

[up] I'm just saying, when you look at what they were each trying to accomplish, their motivations strike me as being not just completely different but also mutually exclusive- so I think it's a stretch to say that T'Challa thought Killmonger was "right" in any meaningful sense.

Look at their respective approaches. T'challa, in a post-credits scene I'm still kicking myself for missing because I walked out of the theater right after the credits started, appears before the United Nations and vows to open up Wakanda to international trade and humanitarian aid efforts. Killmonger, meanwhile, wants to arm insurgent cells in every country with Wakandan weapons technology in a bid to create an empire that, and I quote, "the sun shall never set on". I'm having a hard time looking at this and seeing much of anything in common regarding these two men's long-term goals and motivations.

yey
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#209: Feb 17th 2018 at 2:18:33 PM

Anyone else notice the characterization of Killmonger with women? He kills his girlfriend without hesitation, disrespects Ramonda, Shuri, Okoye, and Nakia, and kills the Dora Milaje he’s holding hostage with a grin.

edited 17th Feb '18 2:19:51 PM by wisewillow

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#210: Feb 17th 2018 at 2:19:41 PM

I assume he has mommy issues.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
NogaiKhan pic unrelated from close enough Since: Nov, 2017 Relationship Status: On the prowl
pic unrelated
#211: Feb 17th 2018 at 2:21:08 PM

But, Killmongers plan would have still caused a whole lot of damage because -snip-.
I'm actually not so sure about this.

Sure, a lot of people may have died from terrorist bombings by his spies, especially given the ridiculous energy density of magical vibranium explosives. But I don't think he's going to get many recruits for his "die to kill as many whities/chinks/etc." possible plan. It's not like there's a huge insurgency of African-Americans just waiting to happen and wage a race war given the opportunity (outside of the minds of delusional racists). His targeting of Hong Kong also caused me to raise an eyebrow, since the very few African-descended people living there are mostly well-off businessmen, students, or athletes. A death toll of millions is probably overstating it, especially for just three transports with small arms aboard. Then again, after his vision quest, he clearly wasn't thinking rationally and basically admits in the climax he just wants to kill a bunch of people.

I got the impression that the fight between -snip- is analogous to the Secret Service vs a National Guard infantry company: both sides are skilled and well-equipped enough for the sort of mission they're expected to perform, but are hardly representative of their country's full technological capability.
Doesn't really explain it. A National Guard company wouldn't have been routed by a bunch of normal dudes with spears. And as we see in Infinity War, they just fight like that normally, even given time to prepare. As I said, their hovercraft are the only notable things about their military, and they're giant subsonic targets with grenade-yield weapons, invisibility or no. A force of entirely mundane spear-users were a relevant addition to the battle that decided the fate of Wakanda. Really think about that. If Wakanda started a conflict with say, Rwanda, I'd expect Kagame's men to overrun the whole country in about a week.

edited 17th Feb '18 2:23:54 PM by NogaiKhan

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#212: Feb 17th 2018 at 2:27:52 PM

They have energy shields that make conventional firearms and ballistics useless, plus the Klaue gun is based off a wakandan mining tool. They’d obliterate a conventional army in a neighboring country.

And also, the border guards and Dora Milaje aren’t an army, they’re tactical teams.

NogaiKhan pic unrelated from close enough Since: Nov, 2017 Relationship Status: On the prowl
pic unrelated
#213: Feb 17th 2018 at 2:30:44 PM

They have energy shields that make conventional firearms and ballistics useless
What, no they don't. Blanketing that area with artillery would've killed everyone there via liquefying their insides, energy shields or no. Panther just jumped over them, they're not full-body-force-fields that make everyone invincible.

edited 17th Feb '18 2:33:29 PM by NogaiKhan

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#214: Feb 17th 2018 at 2:33:43 PM

If they can cloak the entire city to look different, and can make energy shield blankets, they can manage to make an anti-artillery shield. But they weren’t fighting outsiders, so they used different tactics against each other than would be used against conventional weapons.

NogaiKhan pic unrelated from close enough Since: Nov, 2017 Relationship Status: On the prowl
pic unrelated
#215: Feb 17th 2018 at 2:35:50 PM

If they can cloak the entire city to look different, and can make energy shield blankets, they can manage to make an anti-artillery shield.
That's not how that works. Artillery is usually an indirect fire weapon. Short of giving everyone a vibranium nanosuit or covering everyone in a personal full-body force-field (tech they clearly don't have or else they'd actually be using it instead of shields that only cover one direction and leave them vulnerable to normal guys with spears), nothing would've saved them. Even if they had the ability to build these things, they don't have them now, so any modern military would butcher them in short order.
But they weren’t fighting outsiders, so they used different tactics against each other.
They fight the exact same way in the Infinity War trailer. Is this Schrodinger's Army? Where they're assumed to have an invincible force just off-screen that we'll never see?

edited 17th Feb '18 2:49:44 PM by NogaiKhan

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#216: Feb 17th 2018 at 2:38:06 PM

Yeah I'm sure the people who made fucking force-field cloaks would have no problem with all the shit your detailing.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
NogaiKhan pic unrelated from close enough Since: Nov, 2017 Relationship Status: On the prowl
pic unrelated
#217: Feb 17th 2018 at 2:39:14 PM

So why didn't they?

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#218: Feb 17th 2018 at 2:40:13 PM

Because they weren't dealing with it?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
NogaiKhan pic unrelated from close enough Since: Nov, 2017 Relationship Status: On the prowl
pic unrelated
#219: Feb 17th 2018 at 2:41:20 PM

So a full-body force-field couldn't possibly have been useful when their agents were deploying on missions in this film?

Couldn't possibly have been useful when aliens invaded?

Did they also just decide to not give such tech to their Praetorian Guard for the lulz?

Just seems like you're drafting fanfiction at this point tbh.

edited 17th Feb '18 2:49:29 PM by NogaiKhan

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#220: Feb 17th 2018 at 3:11:52 PM

Killmonger's plan likely hinged on the rest of the world not figuring out that Wakanda was the source of the technologically advanced weaponry until he had orchestrated full scale revolutions across the globe and begun toppling governments, and thus wouldn't be able to commit sufficient forces to invading Wakanda. He also counted on getting literally all of Africa on his side.

In a direct conflict of Wakanda verse literally everyone else, Wakanda would lose badly and I don't think the movie expected us to believe otherwise. I also don't think the movie's stakes hinged on the overall likeliness of Killmonger's plan succeeding, but if he even managed to get the ball rolling outside of Wakanda it would cause an enormous amount of chaos and death across the world.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#221: Feb 17th 2018 at 3:48:22 PM

I'm pretty sure T'Challa even tells Killmonger his plan will never work and will just lead to most of the world (including Wakanda) getting ravaged.

eagleoftheninth Shop all day, greed is free from a dreamed portrait, imperfect Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Shop all day, greed is free
#222: Feb 17th 2018 at 4:49:53 PM

It's a pretty obvious case of Taking You with Me. Killmonger has a legit reason to hate the Wakandan state and would probably be glad to go down in flames with it.

One day, we will read his name in the news and cheer.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#223: Feb 17th 2018 at 4:53:16 PM

[up][up]Agreed. I’m just side-eyeing the claim that *any* neighboring country with conventional weaponry could singlehandedly trounce Wakanda.

edited 17th Feb '18 4:54:12 PM by wisewillow

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#224: Feb 17th 2018 at 5:02:41 PM

Building defense weapons aimed at foreign armies makes sense when you are an isolationist country the rest of the world knows about.

As it stands, the rest of the world thinks there is nothing valuable in Wakanda. Neither Rwanda nor anyone else would bother spend resources to try to conquer it, and since the Wakandans are isolationists, they had no reason to antagonize other ethnicities.

Plus, in Africa, actual land wars between two distinct countries look relatively rare. There are many wars - of the civil kind. Since Wakanda didn't mix, no one would have any reason to want to bother them, and throughout the ages they probably were advanced enough to deal with those who threatened to uncover their secret.

Now, if someone like, say, Shuri decides that Wakanda needs an air and/or land force tailored to deal with the U.S. Army, I'd wager that in a couple of months or years at worst they can ensure no one on Earth can even dare to look at them funny.

The US seem to have about one aircraft with significant cloaking abilities. Wakanda puts it on everything as an afterthought. They could build cloaked helicarriers with shields powerful enough to make them impervious to everything if they wanted to.

Oh, also - the US is drooling about getting vibranium to build weapons. Shuri knows how to deactivate its properties. And so far she has used it to build a freaking train of all things.

edited 17th Feb '18 5:04:40 PM by Julep

eagleoftheninth Shop all day, greed is free from a dreamed portrait, imperfect Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Shop all day, greed is free
#225: Feb 17th 2018 at 5:04:26 PM

Don't forget that Wakanda is separated from its neighbours by inhospitable terrain and is all but inaccessible by land. I don't think that most countries would have the large-scale airlift capability to move their troops and equipment anywhere nearby, let alone mount an invasion.

One day, we will read his name in the news and cheer.

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