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Vericrat Like this, but brown. from .0000001 seconds ago Since: Oct, 2011
Like this, but brown.
#101: Jun 7th 2012 at 11:00:15 AM

Eh, guys, according to Snyder v. Phelps (131 S.Ct. 1207), a 2011 Supreme Court case, WBC does have the right to picket funerals.

edited 7th Jun '12 11:00:35 AM by Vericrat

Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.
Matues Since: Sep, 2011
#102: Jun 7th 2012 at 11:01:52 AM

[up]

Well, that's just wonderful.

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#103: Jun 7th 2012 at 11:04:01 AM

Ah, I thought you were bringing them up to make a point in the current discussion, in which they made little sense.

It was, rather, to introduce a new topic of discussion?

It touched on some of the stuff here (the 'men are discriminated against too' thread of conversation), but it was pretty general, yeah.

What's precedent ever done for us?
Matues Since: Sep, 2011
#104: Jun 7th 2012 at 11:08:22 AM

So we just need someone to say something incredibly sexist in order to offend everyone, and derail our derailing thread.

So, who's our chosen sacrifice?

Morven Nemesis from Seattle, WA, USA Since: Jan, 2001
Nemesis
#105: Jun 7th 2012 at 11:08:58 AM

Let's not, rather.

A brighter future for a darker age.
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#106: Jun 7th 2012 at 11:36:07 AM

No, but it also means there need to be guidelines on what kinds of laws we can make. Ones that deny them a right just to use certain words should be out of the question.

Not arguing this. Which is why I used the term "informed". What information we're talking about will vary from case to case.

Actually, it's more along the lines of "don't use this word if you are of a certain race." A black person can get away with using the n-word, a white person who so much as quotes their use of the word can get in a world of trouble for it. This double standard is bad enough without being backed up by the law.

That's again, ignoring the fact that words are not just blanket terms. They have context. I can say "fire" in general conversation, but I can't yell "Fire!" in a crowded building. Likewise, I can't work a civil service job and use a racial slur—even if I am the same race as the person I'm saying it as.

Again, you can bro-punch a friend on the shoulder as a greeting (and even then, depends on the context). You aren't going to bro-punch a random cop without repercussions.

Even that doesn't tell them not to say that at all, just not to do so too close to the funeral, as a pre-emptive measure against harassment of those walking to it. And even that is pushing it as it is.

Nobody is talking about not saying a word at all. We're talking about using it as a slur, epithet or insult that incites emotions.

So is trolling, yet we don't see people being locked up for it.

Depends on the context.

Besides, when the majority of a community does that, they can still get away with it. All your laws would do is let society use its own double standards, logic be damned.

That's besides the point. You can't do anything about a society that ignores its own laws except actually start enforcing said law.

Yes, and that's related both to privacy and to consent.

So like I said, context.

And stuff like "number of people offended" is a severely utilitarian approach. What if it's the majority of people who are in the wrong?

Then if the law is wrong, you change it.

Eh, guys, according to Snyder v. Phelps (131 S.Ct. 1207), a 2011 Supreme Court case, WBC does have the right to picket funerals.

I meant in Canada, where they were not permitted under Section 219 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

edited 7th Jun '12 12:03:04 PM by KingZeal

Vericrat Like this, but brown. from .0000001 seconds ago Since: Oct, 2011
Like this, but brown.
#107: Jun 7th 2012 at 1:10:55 PM

[up]I didn't know WBC was active in Canada. My apologies.

Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.
sveni Since: Apr, 2011
#108: Jun 7th 2012 at 1:26:19 PM

Matt: "What's you're essentially advocating is Appeal To Popularity, wherein a majority of people would get to define which sorts of statements justify violence in retaliation and which don't. This is a form of implicit censorship."

Heavy: "So, before I misunderstand anything, are you implying it's OK for minorities and women to hit people based on insults, because words hurt them more, and that white men just shouldn't ever get in verbal fights with them? Because they might hurt them?"

If you insult a woman with sexist slurs for no reason and her boyfriend hits you in the face, people in general will think that you had it coming. If you think that insulting whoever, whenever and however is your basic human right, I think you have poor survival instincts.

I do not advocate banning a certain word and I do not try to stop white men from insulting minorities. I do however advice everyone to avoid calling black people niggers and women whores, if they do not enjoy pain or being nagged to death. I'm a white man and I've been perfectly capable of insulting members of minorities without relying on those words.

Heavy: "Are you really trying to define the barrier where verbal violence is equal to physical violence? They are never the same. Someone getting called a bitch can brush it off, someone getting punched in the face could be put into a hospital."

Someone getting called a whore every day for several years can drive person to suicide and a punch can leave a black eye that will fade in matter of weeks. They're not the same, but they can both make real damage.

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#109: Jun 7th 2012 at 1:35:50 PM

That's a bad analogy.

More to the point, a person can be harassed with the wrong thing at the wrong time and have it deal significant psychological damage in the same way that they can be punched in the wrong place at the wrong time and cause serious injury or death. (Again, I mentioned someone cracking a "Yo Mama" joke right after someone's mom has died.) Though we have this whole "man up" culture going on in the United States, it's erroneous to assume that people cannot have emotional vulnerabilities.

edited 7th Jun '12 1:36:23 PM by KingZeal

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#110: Jun 7th 2012 at 1:41:30 PM

Well, there's "fighting words" which I believe count as sufficient goading to qualify retaliation as self defense.

Fight smart, not fair.
sveni Since: Apr, 2011
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#112: Jun 7th 2012 at 1:47:40 PM

Insulting someone by making derogatory, insulting, or threatening statements about their mother or implying that she's promiscuous.

DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#113: Jun 7th 2012 at 1:52:26 PM

[up][up] Here are examples.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#115: Jun 7th 2012 at 2:09:07 PM

[up] Yeah, but then again I don't think I've seen anyone try to use a Yo Mama joke as a legitimate insult since middle school. The only time I've seen it used lately is in good-natured ribbing.

eg: "Haha, I'm totally kicking your ass at this game. You suck."
"Yeah, well yo momma sucks."

edited 7th Jun '12 2:09:28 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Vericrat Like this, but brown. from .0000001 seconds ago Since: Oct, 2011
Like this, but brown.
#116: Jun 7th 2012 at 2:12:04 PM

[up][up]Also the sexual ones were sort of the forerunners to "that's what she said." I heard, "That's (not) what your mom said last night" long before I heard "that's what she said."

Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#117: Jun 7th 2012 at 2:14:32 PM

I mostly meant the more serious types of insults, like:

"Who raised you to be such an asshole?"

"I'd ask the same thing, but it's probably more effective if I go spend the night with your mother and give her a chance to do better with the next one."

edited 7th Jun '12 2:16:02 PM by KingZeal

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#118: Jun 7th 2012 at 2:28:33 PM

Given my considerable popularity in these types of discussions I've actively avoided commenting in this thread.

But....I have to address this.

That's again, ignoring the fact that words are not just blanket terms. They have context. I can say "fire" in general conversation, but I can't yell "Fire!" in a crowded building. Likewise, I can't work a civil service job and use a racial slur—even if I am the same race as the person I'm saying it as.

Again, you can bro-punch a friend on the shoulder as a greeting (and even then, depends on the context). You aren't going to bro-punch a random cop without repercussions.

I find this a poor justification for N-Word Privileges. I'm similarly unconvinced by women who have no problem calling one another bitches, but get all out of shape when a male does the same to them.

I agree with you that people who have a rapport with one another can and do do things to each other that might be inappropriate in other circles. You, Zeal, could call me a "Trek-lovin' coon" because we have rapport and I know you don't mean that as an insult.

Here's the thing, if, say, DG or Vericrat said it, I'd extend them the same good faith and automatically assume they were doing it for good-natured lulz. Not because they're flaming racists.

IOW, I'm a bit uncomfortable with the idea that context is synonymous with "race".

edited 7th Jun '12 2:30:08 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#119: Jun 7th 2012 at 6:01:25 PM

Geez, throughout this thread there's this odd misconception where "offensive" is confused with "insulting".

Look, of COURSE when you're insulting someone you want to insult them. That IS the point, and it's not always unjustified. But you don't generally lay down verbal warfare when you're insulting someone, do you? If a black guy totals your car, you might call him a motherfucking shithead but you don't call him a coon or a nigger unless you're a racist asshole.

And the difference is not that "coon" and "nigger" are worse words; the difference is that "coon" and "nigger" hurt ALL black people a little bit when you use them. (They also reveal that you believe that being black is a bad thing, which makes you a racist: a good person would never call a black person "nigger" not because they're pulling punches but because they don't believe that black people ARE "niggers".) But by using them, you are hurting every single black person by spreading the notion that black people are "niggers".

drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#120: Jun 7th 2012 at 6:36:21 PM

Look, of COURSE when you're insulting someone you want to insult them. That IS the point, and it's not always unjustified. But you don't generally lay down verbal warfare when you're insulting someone, do you? If a black guy totals your car, you might call him a motherfucking shithead but you don't call him a coon or a nigger unless you're a racist asshole.

I believe the discussion was about the word "bitch", not racial slurs. -points at OP and the thread title-

But as I understand it, the popular definition of "bitch" regards behavior and action rather than gender. I think its a bit of a stretch to say that using the word "bitch" is an insult to all women. Besides, bitch is also used in a positive light sometimes.

Personally I think the entire idea of "acceptable profanity" is kind of ludicrous.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
Karalora Since: Jan, 2001
#121: Jun 7th 2012 at 6:46:37 PM

The point is that when you're angry at someone who is socially disadvantaged relative to you, you shouldn't conceptually tie your anger to that disadvantage where it isn't relevant. Calling a woman who just rear-ended you a "stupid bitch" implies that the accident had something to do with her femaleness—because you wouldn't say "bitch" to a man who did the same thing. (You probably wouldn't say "bastard" either—"bastard" tends to get thrown at men who, well, act like bastards, not who just make stupid mistakes.) That's why it hurts all women.

(Obviously, the same goes for racial slurs, etc.)

drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#122: Jun 7th 2012 at 7:13:38 PM

It doesn't really apply to all women, just the ones it applies to.

Yeah, that sounds like a tautology...but it really isn't. Stereotypes generally exist because enough people fit them to keep perpetuating them. Take a look at the term "White Trash"; there are plenty of inbred, perpetually drunken wife-beating jerks to whom that label can be justifiably applied. That's why the term exists. The same applies to women and every minority under the sun.

And that's why the therm is profane; it isn't an insult because the target is a woman and that is intrinsically wrong, it is an insult because it is an accusation that the target is a deficient member of the group to which she belongs.

Even insults we take for granted fall into this category. Call someone an idiot? You are stating that you believe them to be of below-average intelligence...that is, they are an intellectually deficient member of the human race. Does that somehow insult/demean people with, say, Down's Syndrome? *

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#123: Jun 7th 2012 at 7:17:39 PM

Last part first: Actually, no, most people I've seen who object to "bitch" also object to "retard". (Idiot and moron no longer mean "stupid as a mental disorder".

Second, calling SOME woman bitches is not better than calling ALL of them bitches. Even worse really: if ALL women are bitches then there's nothing you can do to stop it, but if only SOME woman are bitches then there's a threat of "act like (our conception of) a good girl or else we'll call you a bitch!" Same reason "slut" and "whore" are bad.

EDIT: Also, Drunk, it strikes as very self-defeating for YOU of all people to defend the term "white trash". It doesn't get used against people who "deserve" it, because there are no people who "deserve" it. It gets used against you, and people like you, who are white, rural, and have no money as if that was some kind of bad thing.

edited 7th Jun '12 7:20:25 PM by BlackHumor

drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#124: Jun 7th 2012 at 7:21:43 PM

@Black humor: first part: no actually...moron was also a medical term until it got co-opted into a pejorative. So, same deal. Also, I guess we have different experiences, because insulting someone's intelligence AFAIK seems to be par-for-the-course on the Internet.

Anyhow...yes, insults attack your identity and attempt to turn it into something negative. I do believe that's the point of insulting someone. What's the solution...outlaw cussing?

EDIT: It isn't self-defeating...it's actually self-empowering. Plenty of people would call me "white trash" because I have a mustache, drink a lot, work a blue collar job and actually appreciate hair metal. I also do a lot of things that supposed "white trash" people don't do (coming here being one of them), and anyone who uses that as an insult obviously doesn't know me very well.

You still miss the point. I picked "white trash" as my example because choosing one from my own race (better yet, one that's been thrown at me) seemed safer than picking one that applies to other people (for example, "nigger").

edited 7th Jun '12 7:25:01 PM by drunkscriblerian

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
Muramasan13 Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: Not war
#125: Jun 7th 2012 at 7:21:50 PM

Okay, it was last page, but I simply must take exception to this:

Are you really trying to define the barrier where verbal violence is equal to physical violence? They are never the same.

Berating someone into suicide can't be manslaughter/murder?

Smile for me!

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