So, I would be surprised if people in this thread are not encountering women who think an abortion is killing a person. It seems to me that often young women (not just older women) have either spiritual or conservative beliefs that lead them to believe abortion kills a person and is immoral.
I do not believe in souls and so on, but according to census data my city has relatively high religiosity for my country, so maybe that is why it seems not uncommon.
I don't think that's connected with my post?
Edited by editerguy on Mar 15th 2024 at 3:39:21 AM
Admittedly, up until fairly recently I did think that abortion was murder.
Then I realized that, as I said earlier in this thread, the one who bears the most physical and psychological burden is, y'know, the mother.
It's actually one of the reasons I wholeheartedly think female anatomy should be taught more in details in school (if you live in an education destrict that do, good on you!).
After all, pregnancy and birthing can be an utterly painful ordeal. It's no surprise that after the overturn of Roe v. Wade, there have been a noticable increase of maternal deaths in US.
Of course, everyone knows American Republicans don't actually care about babies.
Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.To be honest, I think that immediately goes into the whole debate of "what counts as a life". And I admit that I don't have neither legal, biological, and philosophical depth to discuss it with confidence.
Of course, I just avoid that aspect altogether anyway. After all, unlike the definition of personhood, there's no argument on the fact that women's bodily autonomy should be respected and guaranteed.
...Unless you're American conservatives and fascists (or am I just repeating myself), that is.
Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.While still on the topic of gynecological autonomy, I don't understand why certain people think that so-called "forced death" (unwanted abortion) is at all a pro-choice value.
Patient's Body. Patient's Choice.
Whether that choice means getting legitimate lifesaving medical treatment, or—for some stupid reason—willfully choosing to endure childbirth despite being warned in advance that injury or death of the patient or fetus is certain, it's not my body, not my business, and not my problem, as long as it's their choice.
On a separate (but similar) note, it's one thing to be a homemaker, careerist, or both. It's another thing entirely to try and rob others of that choice. Which is why I don't understand why "choice feminism" is a disparaging term. I'm a dude. I will not be told to stay out of the kitchen or any job I am qualified for by anybody of any gender (*Cough* Andrew Tate *Cough*).
Regardless of what gender you are, you should not be letting other people determine what household tasks or jobs you are or aren't qualified to carry out if you have the skills or credentials. Different people can put the effort into acquiring different skills.
That said, it's unfair to yourself not to learn at least some survival skills, regardless of gender.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Mar 18th 2024 at 11:58:23 AM
I used to be tentatively pro-choice but I did feel it was a complicated topic. Then one day I realized it actually isn't that complicated and became much more firmly pro-choice.
For me, the thing that upended my worldview on it was when I realized that bodily autonomy as applied in law universally favors the individual. If a three-year-old child needs a kidney transplant or they'll die, the law cannot be used to coerce me into giving them my kidney. Regardless of what an individual person might think the moral decision is, I cannot be required to donate any part of my body for the life and wellbeing of another person.
Doesn't matter that I'm over 30 and they're a child. I have full legal rights to my body. Under no circumstances can the law ever take any part of my body for another human being. Ever. Period. This is how bodily autonomy is applied in all situations, at least under U.S. law.
Except abortion.
People go back and forth on the, "Okay, but you're killing someone." "Okay, but are you really killing someone? At what point does a fetus qualify as a person?" question all the time.
But. Like. It doesn't actually matter. If a person will die without access to a part of your body, the law says "Tough shit; My body, my rules" in all other situations. Why should abortion be any different?
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As commonly gets pointed out, you have to opt in to organ donation in the event of a fatal accident, and failing to honor that choice can be considered desecration of a corpse. Even a corpse has bodily autonomy, even if its organs could be used to save multiple lives, but a living human woman gets less right to decide what's done with her body.
Outside of places like the PRC where organ harvesting is done as part of ethnic cleansing I believe the most extreme situation you get with organ donation is people having to opt-out and getting put at the bottom of the priority order for an organ transplant if they do.
The abortion equivalent would be something like getting low priority for adoption if you decide to have an abortion. Which while weird is much less extreme then the position taken by the anti-choice crowd in the US. Their position is equivalent to not just mandating organ donation but mandating it even if the organ won’t help the receiver, like donating a lung to someone who has also lost their heart and is about to die.
Edited by Silasw on Mar 19th 2024 at 6:47:04 PM
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranI cannot believe I am typing this down, but:
The UN has chosen Saudi Arabia to chair the world body's Commission on freaking Women's Rights!
https://www.dw.com/en/outrage-as-saudi-arabia-picked-to-head-womens-rights-forum/a-68688738

In general suport of abortion run on the idea if you think the fetus have and actually fully form personhood before being born and it a moral duty to make it happen, consequences be dammed.
Is one of those issue that while misoginy is invold, there is also a strong moralisty compound that cant be ignore.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"