@Loni: Which is part of the reason why I try to bring up the point that this doesn't solely affect female characters. I would, honestly, argue that the character of Kratos (and the movie 300, and anything played by Brad Pitt, and...) is indeed an example of male objectification.
edited 6th Jul '12 4:26:46 PM by DrunkGirlfriend
"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscribleriannot according to the definition used by most of the people who discuss things like this.
You can't even write racist abuse in excrement on somebody's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat!![]()
Which I fail to see as a bad thing.
People in fiction like attractive people. BOTH GENDERS. Its just human nature.
And it wont go away until we as a species all turn into undefinable gray blobs.
Then they use the word incorrectly. "Sexist" and "Misogynist" carry very serious consequences and reactions.
edited 6th Jul '12 4:28:31 PM by Thorn14
@Thorn: Uh, no. It's possible to like attractive women without being sexist. it's also possible for a female character to be attractive without being sexist. The key thing is whether or not they do stuff other than be attractive, or if their attractiveness is emphasised and catered to to the detriment of the rest of their character.
Like, someone brought up Korra. She's attractive, but she isn't sexist because her costume, personality, body type and role in the plot aren't all warped around in order to accomodate that attractiveness.
@Drunk Girlfriend: Oh, yeah, male characters suffer from sexism too, but I would say it's in a different way. Male characters are designed to be "Men, this is what you should be"; it's aimed at men. Female characters are also aimed at men. If male characters are objectified, it's not for the benefit of female members of the audience. It's for the males.
edited 6th Jul '12 4:31:11 PM by LoniJay
Be not afraid...Objectification can both be positive (an ideal image to shoot for that works well in society) and negative (when said image takes away inherent perceptions of equal humanity or worth).
Wish fulfilment can also lead to sticky problems, though: a guy who can't possibly live up to the "ideal" of machismo he sees as a valid objective... can become just as body-conscious as any girl starting her flirtation with anorexia for similar reasons. Except in his case, it might lean more towards steroids, protein-shakes, gyms and a sudden heart-attack at age 25 due to the stress on his system giving him acute arrhythmia as well as other health issues.
Both are not healthy places to be.
edited 6th Jul '12 4:31:11 PM by Euodiachloris
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Males are the core demographic of gaming, and will remain such for a very long time.
Also I can't think of many modern examples of female characters who are just "IM A WALKING PAIR OF TITS TEEHEE"
What about Asami? She is much more attractive looking but still manages to be awesome. And watch that video, even more positive examples of females.
So what? We just have a bunch of indescribable blobs for characters in the hopes of not offending anyone?
edited 6th Jul '12 4:32:50 PM by Thorn14
Seriously? That's exactly opposite.
I vowed, and so did you: Beyond this wall- we would make it through.Actually, forty something percent of gamers are now female. That's getting up there towards half the demographic, and I expect it will be about equal eventually. Probably sooner than you might think.
Also, I just gave you an example of an attractive, non-sexist character. Stop strawmanning feminists as wanting everybody to be unattractive.
Be not afraid...![]()
So what do you want then? Plain looking people as heroes? Because thats not going to do very well.
So tell me what the heck you want and keep hollering about. Korra is a great example, but not the only example. I can name a BUNCH of great female characters from video games.
Also I wonder what games those 40% play. The term "Gamer" has become so muddled its unbelievable.
Same reason I don't buy the whole "Adults are playing games now because they play angry birds!"
edited 6th Jul '12 4:37:33 PM by Thorn14
... dude. Read my posts.
Other examples. Hmm. Female game characters.... Jade from Beyond Good And Evil seems pretty good. The female version of Commander Shepard is widely considered to be pretty good, despite the revealing costumes she's sometimes given. Notice that, for her, they didn't really change a lot for her character. They changed just enough of her to make her a straight woman (or whatever else you picked) rather than a man, and then they stopped. Most of her lines are the same.
Be not afraid...There is like ONE even remotely suggesting outfit for femshep...
And copying from that video I linked.
Lucca, Meryl, Faith, Aeris and Tifa, Jade, Madison Paige, Chell, Kate Walker, Kairi, Medli, Elena, Eleanor Lamb, Leah, Marle, Bonnie Mcfarlene,
Also, several females from Super Robot Wars, AND the entire cast of Touhou
edited 6th Jul '12 4:43:14 PM by Thorn14
I'm saying... build a character around the character... and put the eye-candy in as an afterthought. Who knows, maybe your audience will actually prefer a killer plot-line and a complex character that doesn't look perfect by any standard definition of beauty or ruggedness and that is of the genre, yet defies it as well.
Beats a 2D, walking cardboard cut-out that reinforces negative stereotypes.
edited 6th Jul '12 4:44:02 PM by Euodiachloris
Did I mention anything about tits? I don't believe I did...
Wait a sec... are you seriously telling me Aeris doesn't have anything about objectification about her? Dear Lord! She's a walking Yamato Nadeshiko with benefits! And, she's not the only one in the list I could pick at...
edited 6th Jul '12 4:57:12 PM by Euodiachloris
....I'm using a comical exaggeration of what I feel you find offensive because I'm on the internet and I do those things.
In fact, I can name more good female characters than I can supposedly "Sexist" ones.
Only in Advent Children which pussified the main cast.
edited 6th Jul '12 4:51:20 PM by Thorn14
If you're going to drag Riku into this, I have a whole essay just waiting...
Face it, for all the complex characterisation Square Enix (in all it's shapes and forms) has done, there is a huge amount of objectifying going on. Including with Sephiroth and bleeding Kefka (of all characters)!
edited 6th Jul '12 4:53:14 PM by Euodiachloris
Can I just plug this thread that I made?
It's about finding a way to include gender fantasies without being sexist.
Also, to DG—a man dressing in scant clothing with rippling muscles isn't the same as a woman dressed in clothing designed to show her skin. For example, men don't typically wear clever outfits designed to titillate or tease their flesh. At most, they're shirtless or dress like {{Namor}]. As I mentioned before, the best example of an objectified man is Jacob from Twilight. Not only is Jacob a hulking sack of man-meat with glistening abs, but he's so helplessly in love with the female protagonist that he's a raving lunatic without her, he's turned into a simpering wimp when he thinks he's hurt her feelings, he never gives up his love for her even when she flat out makes it clear that he's her second choice, and everything in his life revolves around her.
It's not about having attractive characters. It's about having characters who do things or behave in ways that are for no other purpose than to provide Fanservice.
There's a difference between having a female character be a attractive, and having them be objectified.
A girl can be pretty without flouncing around in a bikini, breasts bouncing with each step.
A good example of this happening to guys would be (As mentioned before) Jacob from the Twilight movies, who appears to have shirt-dissolving skin.
Not Kratos, who's just testosterone pumped I AM SO TOUGH male power fantasy.
Yeah, remove the exaggeration. It's really not worth saying.
But yeah, let's take a look at Mortal Kombat 9. For no reason whatsoever, they made almost every character wear rather revealing clothing. Only a select few characters originally did, being Sheeva(only known female Shokan, so she wanted to attract males. The race was not big enough at the time. Justifed), Shao Kahn(because he can), Goro/Kintaro(perhaps it's just a style of the Shokan), and that was generally it. Liu Kang didn't have a shirt sometimes, but he didn't need one anyway.
Then 9 happened. Most of those characters have zero reason to dress that way. Sonya Blade? Nah. Jade? Doubt it. Mileena? Okay, I could see it since dating sometimes happen. There weren't many of Tartakans either.
And so on. The ones mentioned, being Goro, Kintaro, Shao Kahn... those were more or less sexualized because why not. Male ones. Nobody was sexualized female-wise till 9. No, Mileena nor Sheeva were sexualized at all. When I mean sexualized, I mean for the purpose of titilation for no good reason. Interesting reversal.
Anyway, Soul Calibur got worse quite quickly on. They did little to the males, generally making them look acceptable, but most of the females... had larger breasts each game. Even Ivy, who never ages body-wise as is. And she's a Chaste Hero too. So yeah, we get quite a bit of sexism and it indeed is horrible. It's nice when they atleast make it fair for everyone... in one game I can count.
Quest 64 threadLucca, Meryl, Faith, Aeris and Tifa, Jade, Madison Paige, Chell, Kate Walker, Kairi, Medli, Elena, Eleanor Lamb, Leah, Marle, Bonnie Mcfarlene
For the record, all of the characters I bolded are blatantly sexualized.
I have no idea who Medli, Kate Walker, Elena, Leah, or Bonnie are.
No, it started with MK3, easily.
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edited 6th Jul '12 4:57:56 PM by KingZeal
Kefka is objectified?
Tifa wears a somewhat attractive outfit and suddenly she's sexualized?
edited 6th Jul '12 4:57:05 PM by Thorn14

Then label it something else. Like "Liking attractive females"
Sexism is a dangerous word, just like racism. It implies the person is purposely trying to belittle females or feels they are inferior.
THAT is why I can't stand this crap.
I've been labeled a sexist for not agreeing with that Tropes vs Woman chick...
edited 6th Jul '12 4:26:14 PM by Thorn14