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HeavyDDR Who's Vergo-san. from Central Texas Since: Jul, 2009
Who's Vergo-san.
#276: Jul 6th 2012 at 1:37:23 AM

Every female mentioned apparently has big boobs and short skirts/shorts. Or dress like strippers.

I think you just completely missed the entire point of that post, by like, several miles. Maybe more.

Just popping in to mention this. Peacock, Painwheel, and Double are three characters with nothing sexual about them. Respectively, one is a 13 year-old girl with no arms or eyes, one is a girl with a leather mask, scars across her face, and a giant pin wheel hanging from her back, all the while screaming "GET OUT OF MY HEAD," and the last one is an actual monster that shapeshifts between characters while mostly retaining a very blob-like form.

Filia is not prominently sexual, though she is seen as attractive. Your focus will be on her parasitic hair. Same for Cerebella: also attractive, but with giant arms coming out of her hat which she uses to fight. Parasoul is fairly normal looking with only a notable bust and hip, but nothing really screams out as "FUCK ME" once you start really playing her.

Ms. Fortune is rather scantily clad and is indeed a cat girl, which is appealing to a certain crowd. However, her fighting style relies on her disassembling her body piece by piece, raning from bowling her head across the stage, jetting through the air by releasing blood, and wrapping her enemies in her own veins and playing with them like a ball of yarn. Really, she's just one step above the others, since most of her powers will come off as uncanny and not really attractive. Or, on the contrary, extremely attractive, but that's for those who are into that sort of thing.

Valentine doesn't really have a defense since she really is the token Fanservice Girl. A nurse, a ninja, "be my valentine," asking "where it hurts," and her victory pose is popping out a thermometer from her breasts while it pops from the heat. So.

I guess I just want to ask, what's wrong with this? It's male fantasy. Hot chicks with epic fighting abilities. It's not sexist. It isn't. If you think it's sexist, then you must think that video games also cause real world violence. It's the same thought process, the idea that there isn't a large gap between fiction and reality. That the line between the two is so easily blurred and affects the other. And that's not the case. I can play Skullgirls and go, "hot damn, that Valentine girl, holy shit, her boobs, everywhere," but that doesn't mean I'm going to go up to the next big-busted girl I see in public and say, "hot damn, that real girl, holy shit, her boobs, everywhere."

I'm pretty sure the concept of Law having limits was a translation error. -Wanderlustwarrior
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#277: Jul 6th 2012 at 1:43:12 AM

I don't think you really understand why people criticise sexualisation of women in media.

Be not afraid...
HeavyDDR Who's Vergo-san. from Central Texas Since: Jul, 2009
Who's Vergo-san.
#278: Jul 6th 2012 at 1:44:56 AM

Heaven forbid women look attractive in media.

Heaven forbid anyone look attractive ever.

Because it just boils down to the broad comment of "over sexualization."

I'm pretty sure the concept of Law having limits was a translation error. -Wanderlustwarrior
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#279: Jul 6th 2012 at 1:49:30 AM

Once again, you are greatly over simplifying and misunderstanding the argument. I'm not quite sure how to distil the ideas down into a single post, though...

It's not a matter of 'Women are portrayed in a sexy way, waaaaahh'. It's a matter of "Women are almost exclusively portrayed in a sexy way that ALSO has a tendency of making them into objects for the gratification of the male audience, which reinforces the damaging perception that the primary purpose of women in fiction (and the primary reason anybody is interested in women in fiction) is their physical attractiveness".

It's a complicated topic, and it is NOT 'All sexy women are bad!'.

Be not afraid...
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#280: Jul 6th 2012 at 2:46:45 AM

I agree with Loni, here, I'm afraid, DDR.

The topic is a complex ball of yarn I'm actually starting to feel a bit to unwell to go into with you in-depth (getting dizzy-sick).

However, there are several ways to do some background reading I'd only spout at you, anyway... here: jump off point, care of The Other Wiki. smile

Uh... you may wish to pay attention to the psychological and sociological effects of objectification in general, as well (there are links in-article). It's scary stuff.

edited 6th Jul '12 2:51:17 AM by Euodiachloris

Morven Nemesis from Seattle, WA, USA Since: Jan, 2001
Nemesis
#281: Jul 6th 2012 at 2:55:01 AM

Thing is, you can defend almost any work in isolation. The important part is how it's that way so much of the time. Female objectification and over-sexualization and Male Gaze are present in media to a completely disproportionate degree, and it's that fact that is the true problem.

Games that present sexualized, available, sexually vulnerable men are almost unheard of.

A brighter future for a darker age.
DerelictVessel Flying Dutchman from the Ocean Blue Since: May, 2012
Flying Dutchman
#282: Jul 6th 2012 at 5:22:10 AM

[up] Nor is creating those games the goal. The point is that women in fiction exist a lot of the time to look pretty. That's the end of it. They don't exist for anything else, often times, and even if they are complex characters they're also often the only women in the show.

Objectification isn't about complaining because women look attractive in fiction, it's about that being the extent of their involvement much of the time. The condescension in claiming that it's a trivial problem is also entirely unnecessary.

"Can ye fathom the ocean, dark and deep, where the mighty waves and the grandeur sweep?"
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#283: Jul 6th 2012 at 6:37:53 AM

Peacock, Painwheel, and Double are three characters with nothing sexual about them.

Peacock and Double agreed with. Painwheel? Nah, can't agree there.

Filia is not prominently sexual, though she is seen as attractive. Your focus will be on her parasitic hair.

Nah. That won't be the only thing. She was given that short skirt, thighs and stockings for a reason. And her bust ain't exactly small.

Same for Cerebella: also attractive, but with giant arms coming out of her hat which she uses to fight.

With the most jiggling chest and single most impractical outfit in the entire game.

Parasoul is fairly normal looking with only a notable bust and hip, but nothing really screams out as "FUCK ME" once you start really playing her.

Aside from long, bare legs, a short skirt that flashes panties, and—once again—a jiggling chest, right?

Ms. Fortune is rather scantily clad and is indeed a cat girl, which is appealing to a certain crowd. However, her fighting style relies on her disassembling her body piece by piece, raning from bowling her head across the stage, jetting through the air by releasing blood, and wrapping her enemies in her own veins and playing with them like a ball of yarn. Really, she's just one step above the others, since most of her powers will come off as uncanny and not really attractive. Or, on the contrary, extremely attractive, but that's for those who are into that sort of thing.

We used to have a trope called Creepy Sexy for a reason. Just because you make something disgusting doesn't mean it doesn't remain fetish fuel, especially for a niche.

I guess I just want to ask, what's wrong with this? It's male fantasy. Hot chicks with epic fighting abilities. It's not sexist. It isn't.

Yeah it is, when you take the time to make an entire cast of characters female because of it. Mike Z has personally stated that the reason he made the cast this way is because he likes the juxtaposition of beauty and grotesqueness. So basically, the game is built specifically from HIS Author Appeal.

If you think it's sexist, then you must think that video games also cause real world violence. It's the same thought process, the idea that there isn't a large gap between fiction and reality. That the line between the two is so easily blurred and affects the other.

Not even close to the same thing. You're confusing "inherent" properties with "causative" properties.

Being "sexist" is not a causative property. No one is saying that Skullgirls promotes rape or violence against women. What we're saying is that it objectifies women. What would be more accurate is if you accused video games of glorifying violence, as that's an inherent property, not a causative one. But that would work because MANY of them DO. ('I don't care WHAT the critics say...violence is a BEAUTIFUL thing!")

edited 6th Jul '12 1:31:31 PM by KingZeal

joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#284: Jul 6th 2012 at 12:58:57 PM

You guys all make good arugments why video games are sexist.

And you didn't even need a kickstarter.

edited 6th Jul '12 1:02:39 PM by joeyjojo

hashtagsarestupid
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#285: Jul 6th 2012 at 1:00:23 PM

What's silly about the argument though, is that the objectification and sexualization of characters in video games isn't restricted to women, but people keep acting as if it is.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
TenTailsBeast The Ultimate Lifeform from The Culture Since: Feb, 2012
#286: Jul 6th 2012 at 1:02:13 PM

[1]

Ah, the rallying cry of every privilege denying male who is being told that their geek hobby of choice (comics, vidya games etc) objectifies women to an obscene degree regularly. “But men are sexually objectified too. They are all look like walking tanks, with bulging muscles.” they will retort in smug indignation. You know the drill.

These people just are not able to understand that male protagonists in these media are not a female sexual fantasy, but rather a male power fantasy. I.e. such presentation of the male gender is tailored to a male audience. Unfortunately, even though this has been refuted in depth, this annoying reply persists in practically every conversation about objectification of women in geek culture.

I vowed, and so did you: Beyond this wall- we would make it through.
Vericrat Like this, but brown. from .0000001 seconds ago Since: Oct, 2011
Like this, but brown.
#287: Jul 6th 2012 at 1:20:27 PM

It's really male wish fulfillment. Many guys wish all women were attractive and comfortable with their sexuality. So in video games, they're presented that way. Because, retardedly enough, video game designers keep making games aimed solely at guys. Just like guys wish they were stealth ninjas, badass space marines, and world-saving heroes with giant swords. So games cater to that. Video games try to give guys what they are perceived as wanting. So they can make money.

So what incentive to game designers have to not create over-sexualized women? Guys apparently like that.

Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#288: Jul 6th 2012 at 1:28:21 PM

Exactly. Kratos isn't exactly an objectified male. As I've said, many, many times, if you want to see what an "objectified" male character looks like, Twilight (Jacob in particular) is probably the best example at this point.

Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#289: Jul 6th 2012 at 1:28:28 PM

The argument "it's what sells" falls flat if you don't actually try your consumers on something else, as well. It's like Korra gave executives the jitters, as Nick was unsure if boys would watch a girl role-model that wasn't any of the kinds described above. Without the success of ATLA behind it, it could have been pulled for that.

Turns out... teenage boys still find a kickass character kickass, even if she's not a standard cartoon protagonist, nor what the execs expected to see in a girl-lead (girly-sexy, but can kick ass as well as she rocks the blatant-as-possible fan-service with discreet Gainaxing and leg-shots, but with submissiveness as a strong component of the character, regardless of any overtly stated girl-power motifs), either. Well, duh, guys. They seriously need to browse here... tongue

edited 6th Jul '12 1:39:08 PM by Euodiachloris

breadloaf Since: Oct, 2010
#290: Jul 6th 2012 at 2:14:26 PM

Yeah, I'd go with King Zeal. Male objectification is very different from what Kratos is. Kratos is what guys want to be, a big badass kicking ass.

Also, Korra is hot to many many guys. However, anything female can be hot (rule 34 and stuff) but the main idea is whether they meant to sexualise the character and I think Korra is not sexualised.

I just find that video games are the worst offenders, whereas tv media is moving ahead faster. Plots take such a backseat in most game developments (indie developers don't have the money much of the time and the top publishers blow all their money on graphics and voice acting) that people fall back on outdated cliches. You think, for instance, Blizzard Entertainment could avoid having greedy Asian merchant stereotype in Diablo 3, but no. You think that they could have made Kerrigan in Starcraft 2 into a convincing badass villain, but no, it's "save the damsel zerg queen in distress". Really? Disappoint.

edited 6th Jul '12 2:14:51 PM by breadloaf

Muramasan13 Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: Not war
#291: Jul 6th 2012 at 4:00:31 PM

However, anything female can be hot (rule 34 and stuff) but the main idea is whether they meant to sexualise the character and I think Korra is not sexualised.

Correction: anything can be hot, period.

I find funny the implicit "to us straight men".

edited 6th Jul '12 4:01:46 PM by Muramasan13

Smile for me!
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#292: Jul 6th 2012 at 4:09:28 PM

Male objectification is very different from what Kratos is. Kratos is what guys want to be, a big badass kicking ass.

Okay, hold up. How is that not objectification? It's still reducing a character to being an object of desire, just in a wish-fufillment sort of way.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#293: Jul 6th 2012 at 4:11:27 PM

[up] Not to mention they have him badass in the desire for people to want to be like him.

So...

We can never have attractive women in video games? Because no woman in real life EVER dresses sexily.

I just do not freaking understand what people want.

This woman sums up my views perfectly.

I have trouble discussing this because while I believe that females deserve equal pay and shouldn't be treated like shit and work wherever they want. This recent trend of "Sexism in video games" is annoying the hell out of me. And whenever I go against the grain, i'm labeled a sexist.

People throw the label sexist way too easily. Do people really think developers are making sexy female characters out of spite/hatred of women? Because that is what sexism is. Belief that one gender is inferior.

What they are doing is making characters who appeal to the primary market. And in media, people prefer attractive characters. Its like that EVERYWHERE, and its just how fiction is.

edited 6th Jul '12 4:14:48 PM by Thorn14

TenTailsBeast The Ultimate Lifeform from The Culture Since: Feb, 2012
#294: Jul 6th 2012 at 4:18:38 PM

Seriously? Presenting badass men in fiction is as bad presenting women as submissive sexual objects? How does that even work? You are wide off the mark here.

edited 6th Jul '12 4:20:48 PM by TenTailsBeast

I vowed, and so did you: Beyond this wall- we would make it through.
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#295: Jul 6th 2012 at 4:20:34 PM

[up] I don't think characters like Painwheel are particularly submissive, y'know.

They're sexualized for the benefit of the opposite gender, but so is Kratos.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
breadloaf Since: Oct, 2010
#296: Jul 6th 2012 at 4:20:48 PM

What no? That's missing the point. If everyone loved games in which you lynch black people and we complained that it glorified anti-black attitudes and you claimed "that's just what the market wants!" is hardly a good defence. The market wants sexist games, the market provides sexist games, it's sexist.

Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#297: Jul 6th 2012 at 4:21:10 PM

[up][up][up]Where did you get submissive? You're adding things.

The point is. Video games are fiction. Things in fiction are meant to appeal to people. Thats how they get bought and spread around.

People like attractive characters. And in today's standards, beauty is defined by well...do I need to define it?

[up] Did you really just compare a game having sexy females as insulting to women as a game where you lynch black people is to black people?

You act like the market is swimming in games where you go around slapping woman and dominating them with your amazing penis.

[up][up]

The point is they are meant to be physically appealing, a standard in most fiction. Even "good" female characters in video games are attractive. As are most males.

edited 6th Jul '12 4:23:24 PM by Thorn14

TenTailsBeast The Ultimate Lifeform from The Culture Since: Feb, 2012
#298: Jul 6th 2012 at 4:23:05 PM

The point is. Video games are fiction. Things in fiction are meant to appeal to people. Thats how they get bought and spread around.

People like attractive characters. And in today's standards, beauty is defined by well...do I need to define it?

What does this prove? Does it prove that our culture is not sexist? No. Does it prove that the games are not sexist? No. All it proves is that things are the way they are, which is a trivialism.

I vowed, and so did you: Beyond this wall- we would make it through.
Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#299: Jul 6th 2012 at 4:23:42 PM

It proves you need to realize wanting attractive people is not sexism.

LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#300: Jul 6th 2012 at 4:24:42 PM

It's possible to be sexist without realising it, and without any real hatred or spite.

Nobody is suggesting that game makers are evil misogynists who want women to get back in the kitchen, or think that real life women are just there for their sexual gratification. They're just saying that certain trends in the media are inadvertently harmful.

Sexism can be an unconscious thing. It's not something you realise that you're doing, a lot of the time. I find myself being sexist sometimes.

edited 6th Jul '12 4:26:38 PM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...

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