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Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Jun 10th 2019 at 2:49:03 PM

[up][up][up] Which may be the point: not making us feel attached to a main protagonist lets us worry about the overall goal rather than keeping Doofus #12 alive and helps maintain the immersion of living in a world that's truly hostile.

One of the biggest flaws of WD and WD2 from an immersion perspective is the knowledge that you never die, so there are no real consequences for failure. You just desynchronize... *cough* I mean respawn, everyone forgets that you were murdering them a few seconds ago, and you go on about your business. To maintain complete continuity through an entire playthrough without a single "respawn" would be extremely immersive.

I do wonder if there are failure points that prevent continuing, though. If you literally get everyone in your roster killed, does the game just move on with a new batch of resisters? It does make a point of saying that "everyone is a part of the fight". AAA sandbox games have long been averse to enforcing any sort of Game Over state for failure; I don't see Ubisoft breaking with that tradition.

I also wonder how dynamic the world will be. In both of the other games, there is really no replay value whatsoever. It's not like you're playing differently or exploring different story choices. All there is after the credits is goofing around in the sandbox and doing randomly generated missions, which gets old. If your choice of characters and/or their fates makes a real difference to how the story goes, there will be actual replay value for once.

[down] I don't hate the protagonists of WD2 per se, but they do get quite irritating at times and are so blatantly focus group pandering to millennials that it's hard to take seriously.

Edited by Fighteer on Jun 10th 2019 at 5:55:13 AM

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Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany
Foreign Troper
Jun 10th 2019 at 2:50:46 PM

[up][up] God, don't remind me. I hated every single one of these idiots! They had no personality whatsoever, just random, annoying quirks.

They almost had me wishing back dull old Aiden.

Wispy Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
Jun 10th 2019 at 3:25:47 PM

Eh I would take them over Aiden.

Aiden was such an massive disappointment to me. Its why I was like Fucking hell, this new protag is another fucking Aidan before he died in the gameplay demo for this game.

I do also like how they went near full cyberpunk with this one as well. Pretty much the only thing the setting is lacking from cyberpunk so far seems to be cybernetics themselves but we only saw a portion of it so I imagine some cybernetics may exist.

Cybernetics could also introduce some interesting options with the cTOS stuff still being there. Netrunner stuff pretty much.

Edited by Wispy on Jun 10th 2019 at 3:26:15 AM

I used to go by the troper handles/names, Ecrivan and Bleddyn.
TheAirman from Congratulations! Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Jun 10th 2019 at 3:32:07 PM

So we’re all maining the old lady, right?

PSN ID: FateSeraph Congratulations!
slimcoder Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armage
Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armage
Jun 10th 2019 at 3:44:21 PM

[up][up] Well that's a stuck between a rock and a hard place if I ever saw one.

On one side a ball of nothing, on the other side hipsters.

There is no good choice there.

Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Jun 10th 2019 at 4:34:23 PM

I enjoyed Aiden's story. The character himself is a bit of a null, to be sure, but there's something cathartic about the classic revenge plot, especially when mapped onto a sci-fi world. The critical problem with the game is that its protagonist is never as interesting as the world he's living in.

The critical problem with the second game, in turn, is that there's very little sense of any stakes for the characters themselves. The one attempt to raise them, by killing off whats-his-name, falls flat since it's completely disconnected from the main story. It's just a bunch of folks doing a bunch of stuff, then the game ends. It's fun stuff, to be sure, but it carries very little emotional weight.

Edited by Fighteer on Jun 10th 2019 at 7:37:36 AM

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VeryMelon SUPER SOMETHING ELSE
SUPER SOMETHING ELSE
Jun 10th 2019 at 4:52:56 PM

The problem I had with Aiden is that all his problems are his own making, and the story does everything it can to ignore that fact. Aiden doesn't discover his flaws and try to overcome them, nor does the game use Aiden's lack of self-reflection as a cautionary tale. He's generic from start to finish, but the game always tries to act like he isn't.

Jordi would have been a more interesting protagonist for Aiden's story if that was all the game would do with Aiden.

Not that I care much more for the DedSec Brigade. They have the same Designated Hero issue Aiden did, but this time they're fighting a Designated Villain AND the attempts to make them more personable and interesting swerve hard into the negative opposite of Aiden's character.

Edited by VeryMelon on Jun 10th 2019 at 5:27:18 AM

Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Jun 10th 2019 at 5:04:34 PM

Aiden does technically grow and learn at one point: at the very end when you get the chance to kill or free that dumbass that you keep prisoner and torture for the whole game. (Well, your friend tortures him, but still.) It's the closest thing you get to a moral choice, which is supposed to carry some emotional weight. So it's not zero development or self-awareness, just very close to zero.

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slimcoder Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armage
Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armage
Jun 10th 2019 at 5:07:24 PM

[up][up] Oh yeah that is an issue with 2 as well.

Both games treat the protagonist as ultimate bastions of whatever they are trying to accomplish without ever analyzing their own flaws or problems they themselves have.

Its more annoying in 2 since Deadsec is constantly all "were're doing this for the people" while no mistake is made that Aiden is doing this for himself.

Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Jun 10th 2019 at 5:09:03 PM

It's arguably worse in 2 because the protagonists are supposed to be noble freedom-loving heroes, but commit massive numbers of genuine crimes including (as Zero Punctuation puts it) multiple counts of first-degree murder.

Edited by Fighteer on Jun 10th 2019 at 8:09:28 AM

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slimcoder Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armage
Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armage
Jun 10th 2019 at 5:10:20 PM

And no one aside from the villains calls them out.

At least Aiden got crapped on by a lot of people, including his own sister.

Jun 10th 2019 at 6:37:39 PM

8x[up]Am going to get an entered team of nothing of but Old ladies.

ShirowShirow More Dread from Land of maple syrup Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
More Dread
Jun 10th 2019 at 11:13:49 PM

Tactical Grandma Hacktivism has be intrigued.

Bleye knows Sabers.
Adannor from effin' belarus Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Jun 10th 2019 at 11:23:18 PM

Yep I'm definitely maining the Old Ladies Doing Murders Club.

"The level of dialog complexity indicated by having so many playable characters who all need to interact with each other is frankly insane. I wonder how scripted the experience will be."

It'll probably be like Shadow Of War's situation. Less interwoven than the E3 showcase was, but still a massive buttload of quips. Resistance members won't really meet face to face besides the "you're in now" short cutscene. Even event-related quips over the radio are questionable to be a frequent showing. Any plot NPC with an individuality to them will probably only refer to DedSec as a whole when addressing the PC.

Edited by Adannor on Jun 11th 2019 at 11:29:39 AM

avvie source
Jun 11th 2019 at 12:15:44 AM

I will admit, I'm not sure which I found more irritating; the unbelievably bland Aiden (only Ford Brody outblands him) or the painfully stereotypical hipsters from the second.

slimcoder Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armage
Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armage
Jun 11th 2019 at 12:20:52 AM

We can all look on the bright side.

Even if Ubisoft is exaggerating on how far the whole multiple characters will have at least we will have more variety than just the brooding avenger or the pack of hipsters shopping from hot topic. That's the funny thing, I don't mind teaming up with a hipster but having the entire main protag team comprised of hipsters was too far.

Though considering perma-death is a thing, by God be careful if you have a favorite.

InkDagger Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Jun 11th 2019 at 1:20:09 AM

[up]x4

Depending on how far in the future this is, I fancanon that she was a vet of the Tumblr wars. And all of her one-liners will be about really old internet hacking jokes and references.

Jun 11th 2019 at 2:48:19 AM

The hipsters in 2 were actually brought up short a few times and reminded that their little Anarch club only gets so far.

I liked the game but I think I only scratched the surface and didn't get far. The design, the world, it all gelled well buuuut.. I had the same issue I hit with WD 1 - massive map, too many things, frustration when I couldn't get that ONE collectible or something and thus lost interest as the plot missions felt fairly disjointed from the wider world.

Though I like the thing they're doing - it introduces a bit of a roguelike element to the game AND the consequence of trying to bumrush things.

And they've actually done quite well at recreating London - I recognised the whole sprint from Picadilly, down towards Leicester square, the left turn towards Trafalgar square and the National Gallery.

How much of London they cover will be interesting though. And the cyberpunk elements are REALLY being laid on thick here.

My only objection there is I can't imagine any Nigel Farage level government being organised enough to have it's own "Albion" brownshirts; or that they'd be that well equipped; or that they'd have that much cash. Wonder if a plot point is that the "Albion" lot are actually privately funded or foreign funded...

It's weird for me, as a Brit, hearing English in games that isn't West Country accents (Aka usual fantasy fare) - as London accents can range from bland, recieved pronounciation (like mine) all the way to soft cockney, a bit of an accent, all the way to East End gangster levels. So they've gone for some extremes where British actors are hamming it the hell up.

But it's nice to have a GTA alike open world game in London. I loved Syndicate, so having a more modern take is good.

Also the sly nod to the Black Cabs being all auto-driven vehicles now... there's a subtle statement (For those in the know, we've had a lot of low key protests in London Bridge about Uber and Black Cab clashes, with Black cab drivers fearing they're being forced out - and automated vehicles are part of their fears)

Falrinn Random Internet Person from A location definable in 4 dimensional terms
Random Internet Person
Jun 12th 2019 at 7:37:09 PM

Got to say, with how ambitious the gameplay is, Watchdogs: Legion is either going to be legendarily awesome or astonishingly terrible with no middle ground.

Also doesn't look like anyone has posted this:

It's a featurette where they are discussing gameplay details. Apparently there are no generic human NP Cs whatsoever in the entire game. If I'm understanding them correctly even the random mooks working for the authoritarian government or the crime syndicates will have families who will be upset if they are killed and will in theory be recruitable themselves.

I like liking things
Adannor from effin' belarus Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Jun 12th 2019 at 11:23:27 PM

Hm, so is that how they're going to be doing the whole "consequences for murders" then? Just that the more you kill, the more and more people will start with a negative opinion of DedSec, until it is such a pain to recruit anybody into your lil' extremist cell.

avvie source
slimcoder Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armage
Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armage
Jun 12th 2019 at 11:26:32 PM

Okay that's actually clever. So ya have to decide carefully if ya wanna disregard causalities.

I'm hoping there are missions that require the use of multiple characters such as the heists in GTAV.

ShirowShirow More Dread from Land of maple syrup Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
More Dread
Jun 12th 2019 at 11:27:47 PM

Imagine running into those family members while you're controlling them.

Random evil guard: "U-uncle Brandon? Is that you?"

Player: (Uses the opportune moment to gun security down)

Bleye knows Sabers.
Adannor from effin' belarus Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Jun 12th 2019 at 11:36:59 PM

[up][up] Hm, that can work. Maybe.

Like, the basic structure would be that the mission is split into a couple separate tasks, and you'd pick which agent you want to send on each one. Then you play through those sections.

But that also raises a question of how the game would handle a failure on one side of the objective. In GTA you'd just reload a checkpoint, but this is a permadeath game.

Edited by Adannor on Jun 12th 2019 at 9:37:20 PM

avvie source
deludedmusings Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Jun 12th 2019 at 11:39:36 PM

It sounds very, very ambitious at the very least.

Adannor from effin' belarus Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Jun 12th 2019 at 11:42:29 PM

Hella so. Too ambitions to get it all, honestly, but there should still be enough meat on those bones to have a fun game.

avvie source

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