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RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#3851: Sep 21st 2023 at 7:08:31 PM

Perhaps, but isn't this the Cyberpunk genre? It's all about fighting the power but there's a lot of sidequests where you help people in power.

Hell, you can take orders from the police.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
SgtRicko Since: Jul, 2009
#3852: Sep 21st 2023 at 7:18:33 PM

Yeah, that bit with the NCPD open-contracts or Crimes In Progress was an oddity. But then again, you're being paid for your services, so it can be considered mercenary work in a pragmatic sense.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#3853: Sep 21st 2023 at 7:19:53 PM

There's also the bit where you work for that political power couple. Sure V is a merc but despite the genre, you spend a significant amount of time working for the power.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#3854: Sep 21st 2023 at 7:20:38 PM

[up][up]Edgerunners don't care who is offering a job, just that the job pays. In Cyberpunk (this specific setting, not the genre in general), no Edgerunner has any illusions about fighting the Corpos. That fight was lost a long time ago. It's a Corpo world, and Edgerunners just survive it.

Edited by M84 on Sep 21st 2023 at 10:20:46 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#3855: Sep 21st 2023 at 7:24:19 PM

This entry is what I'm getting at.

So honestly, I don't find it wild that the devs considered an ending to extend the devil ending to make it the one where V survives.

The anti-capitalist themes are half baked and often the game contradicts them. The problem isn't just V is working for the power because they are a merc, but the game portrays it as ideal at times.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Sep 21st 2023 at 10:48:09 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#3856: Sep 21st 2023 at 7:48:16 PM

So if I were to pick up my favorite iconic gun at a lower level, I'd only be able to upgrade it a couple of times and then be forced to re-craft it?

I've not see if you can even recraft iconic guns. But judging by all the other guns, if you were to recraft it, it would have the same stats as when you first got it, prior to every upgrades.

Other changes, Reboot Optics has been super nerfed. Using it causes a timer where enemies will track your location unless you eliminate them all.

Edited by Ghilz on Sep 21st 2023 at 10:56:10 AM

SgtRicko Since: Jul, 2009
#3857: Sep 21st 2023 at 7:56:54 PM

That can't be right. Cause if so, then every single blueprint effectively becomes a waste of menu space the moment you obtain a higher level piece of gear, since you'll no longer be able to re-craft an effective tool anymore.

Doesn't add up with all the positive praise the expansion's been getting either, you'd figure some reviewer or early access player would've complained about the crafting system still being broken.

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#3858: Sep 21st 2023 at 8:00:36 PM

I tested it myself, crafting a green liberty two levels appart, it has the same stats. Only weapons in the upgrade tab are iconic. And I can't find a way to remake an iconic from scratch. Don't take my word for it, try it out.

Guess Iconics are de-emphasized and you're instead more encouraged to use regular gear. Moving from a green Liberty to a Blue Liberty, to a Purple to an orange.

EDIT: Other change to crafting, Mods and cyberdeck softwares cannot be installed on an item of lower tier than itself.

Edited by Ghilz on Sep 21st 2023 at 11:11:50 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#3859: Sep 21st 2023 at 8:11:19 PM

I'm very curious as to why the devil ending in particular. Funnily enough, the game has been accused of being pro corpo despite being Cyberpunk. Remember, teaming up with the Netwatch agent and killing the gang full of non white people is framed as the better choice, for one.

Netwatch still is a bunch of bastards as they try to use you as a backdoor to murder the Voodoo Boys.

And the Voodoo Boys will be back in Phantom Liberty.

But I'm reminded of Jingo where Vimes is reminded that not believing minorities can be guilty of crimes is also a form of racism. It's not like the game is lacking for positive minority characters. It's just these particular minorities are awful people.

(and possibly Alt, depending on how much we can trust the AI gestalt consciousness to not be a validation of everything Net Watch ever set out to do) over to do it, though.wild mass guess

Funny fact, if you're a tabletop gamer, you know that Netwatch built the Blackwall with....Alt Cunningham and a bunch of Benevolent A.I. called the Transcendent Circle.

So, Netwatch trying to kill her is them being corpo scum and destroying arguably one of humanity's last best defenses.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 21st 2023 at 8:14:13 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#3860: Sep 21st 2023 at 8:15:03 PM

Oh, interesting bit about Phantom Liberty....

Though it certainly is a bad look that teaming up with a white cop to kill a gang full of minorities is the better option. The optics are shit.

I'm not saying minorities are perfect obviously, but the game is Cyberpunk and something like this stands out. Sure I don't like the Voodoo boys but teaming up with a white cop to kill them? Uhhhhhh.....

Edited by RedHunter543 on Sep 21st 2023 at 11:16:00 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#3861: Sep 21st 2023 at 8:30:17 PM

Less people think the game isn't still kind of a buggy mess, just lost the ability to summon my car.

Like, im not at the quest where the car breaks. It just... doesn't spawn anymore.

EDIT: So some weapons store bought versions are just better than the crafted version? The Tier 2 satara at the gunstore at Kabuki has a mod slot, while the one you craft does not (identical stats otherwise). Whats the point of crafting a gun lol

EDIT 2: Side effect of the police overhaul is there's way more cops and it just gets weird to be like, doing a crime in progress and there's two officers strolling through the gunfire ignoring everything so long as neither side hits them or a civilian. Or your walking with a body on your shoulder and there's an officer just right there ignoring you.

Edited by Ghilz on Sep 21st 2023 at 12:07:27 PM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#3862: Sep 21st 2023 at 9:19:16 PM

I'm not saying minorities are perfect obviously, but the game is Cyberpunk and something like this stands out. Sure I don't like the Voodoo boys but teaming up with a white cop to kill them? Uhhhhhh.....

Fair enough.

A small note, you don't actually team up with the cop to kill them. He just removes the virus from your software. They kill the VD entirely on their own. You are neither informed of his plans or are a willing participant in them. Indeed, he says he's going to release Brigitte and her Netrunner pal.

And there's also the way I think a "canon" Edgerunner would handle it.

  • You kill the Netwatch guy
  • You free the Voodoo Boys prisoners
  • They try to kill you
  • You kill them after they betray you again.

EDIT 2: Side effect of the police overhaul is there's way more cops and it just gets weird to be like, doing a crime in progress and there's two officers strolling through the gunfire ignoring everything so long as neither side hits them or a civilian. Or your walking with a body on your shoulder and there's an officer just right there ignoring you.

To be fair, that actually sounds like how Night City cops WOULD behave.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 21st 2023 at 9:21:16 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#3863: Sep 21st 2023 at 10:33:20 PM

https://beforewegoblog.com/video-game-review-cyberpunk-2077-three-years-later-2/

Here's my Update 2.0 review.

Basically, a lot of improvements and some small changes I don't like.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#3864: Sep 21st 2023 at 10:50:47 PM

Quickhacks took a bunch of nerf. Besides reboot optic being made way more dangerous to use, turning cameras to friendly mode is now temporary. Better to disable them (They stay off).

InkDagger Since: Jul, 2014
#3865: Sep 21st 2023 at 11:33:47 PM

I too am kinda on the side that Cyberpunk 2077... maybe doesn't treat the VDB or it's other minority groups as interestingly or compellingly as possible and ends up a bit... unintentionally uncomfortable with it?

Like, the most obvious racial diversity in the game isn't really that great? The Valentinos are Hispanic, but y'know, a gang like any other and pretty terrible. Arasaka is almost entirely Japanese and are the Big Bads of the setting. The VDB are the most prominent black representation in the entire game... and they also hire a proustite, use her, and then kill her and leave her to be sold off as a literal fetish object. And they also pretty universally treat V like shit the entire time they're on screen.

This is more than likely due to script cuts than anything more ill-intended; Earlier versions of the script had Evelyn working with VDB well into Act 2. And there were versions where Maman Brigitte joined V into the end-game to Mikoshi along side everyone else. Brigitte even got some Pet The Dog moments that never made it very far.

Granted, I do kinda think positive representation is kinda difficult in a genre like this. As pointed out, characters who are incapable of flaws or criminal acts because of their minority status is in of itself a form of discrimination. But when the genre kinda gets into the dregs of human behavior... it ends up proving stereotypes too. Representation in a cyberpunk work has to be extremely carefully considered and balanced. For your dregs of humanity, you should meet it with an equal and opposite representation.

I think Cyberpunk 2077 understands the world and genre in broadstrokes, but isn't about being the punk who fucks the world. That's Johnny's gig and he isolated himself and died for it. V isn't a punk because they're too realistic and unmotivated that they can have any kind of impact or change on the world. It's only when Johnny and V compliment each other that Arasaka can be brought to it's knees.

However, I would like to kinda defend V helping the Peralez family- while they are powerful, they've run on an ANTI-Corp platform and gained their power and influence that way. So, far as V really understands, they're kinda the good guys. It's only the twist later that they're only able to cultivate that influence on an anti-corp platform because they themselves are puppets for a corp

Edited by InkDagger on Sep 21st 2023 at 11:36:17 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#3866: Sep 21st 2023 at 11:56:38 PM

Most Edgerunners aren't going to change Night City, much less the world. They just live on the edge, and maybe die a legend who gets a drink named after them.

Even Johnny and V are only able to make a real difference one way or another because of Yorinobu's scheme. That said, Johnny was the one who inspired Yorinobu in the first place.

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#3867: Sep 22nd 2023 at 12:01:36 AM

Actually, the Voodoo Boys aren't the most prominent black representation in the game.

Dex is.

Which is...not better?

Then there's T-Bug...

Who gets Fridged.

Damn.

Like, the most obvious racial diversity in the game isn't really that great?

I'm wondering what Panam's ethnicity is now. If she's Trace Santiago's daughter, she's partially Hispanic.

This is actually a larger issue of the game that I'd love to discuss as there's really no place to put decent people in the game. Because aside from the Aldecados, Vic, Misty, Judy, and Mama Welles, literally everyone in the game is some form of piece of shit or another. Even the Mox to an extent.

The Valentinos and Arasaka are both gangs and terrible but the three "white" groups in the game are Militech, Maelstrom (which has decided "skinhead" motifs even if they're not explicitly racially motivated—for good reason), and 6th Street.

Militech also comes off as A Lighter Shade of Black than Arasaka unless you explore the badlands and discover that they're conducting ethnic cleansing of the Nomads in the name of Border Control (Wow...I did not get the connection until I typed that out).

I think Cyberpunk 2077 understands the world and genre in broadstrokes, but isn't about being the punk who fucks the world. That's Johnny's gig and he isolated himself and died for it. V isn't a punk because they're too realistic and unmotivated that they can have any kind of impact or change on the world. It's only when Johnny and V compliment each other that Arasaka can be brought to it's knees.

To be fair, this is actually because V doesn't make their "who they are" choice until the final Ending. You can be a person who sacrifices themselves for Johnny, a Nomad (playing into uncomfortable "rural people are good" stereotypes), a corporate sell out, or someone who does indeed fuck the world by going out in a blaze of glory to destroy Arasaka but you always are trying to follow a selfish motive throughout the game regardless of who you are.

However, I would like to kinda defend V helping the Peralez family- while they are powerful, they've run on an ANTI-Corp platform and gained their power and influence that way. So, far as V really understands, they're kinda the good guys. It's only the twist later that they're only able to cultivate that influence on an anti-corp platform because they themselves are puppets for a corp

CDPR really turned the Darker and Edgier up on the tabletop game which is cynical but not as cynical as all the Expanded Media and the main game that always seem to end on Humans Are Bastards and Downer Ending.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 22nd 2023 at 1:29:54 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#3868: Sep 22nd 2023 at 12:59:48 AM

Night City becoming even shittier is probably down to the influence the Corpos have had on it since 2020.

Is it any wonder that things have gotten worse in 57 years?

Johnny even notes that Night City hasn't seen much actual change or progress. A lot of things and people are still as Johnny remembers them, even though he's been dead for decades.

Edited by M84 on Sep 22nd 2023 at 4:01:07 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#3869: Sep 22nd 2023 at 1:03:01 AM

[up][up] Theres also a slight nationalistic bent to how Militech is portrayed compared to Arasaka even if both are evil.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#3870: Sep 22nd 2023 at 1:24:48 AM

[up]

Yes, there's an interesting contrast I'm looking forward to seeing in Cyberpunk RED vs. Phantom Liberty. In Red, the NUSA being created from the ashes is undoubtedly a good thing because no matter how much you hate the Old USA, it's better to have people not starving in feuding city states.

But RED also states that Militech eventually takes over the NUSA Palpatine-style even though the NUSA was founded to fight the megacorps and nationalized Militech to dismantle it.

Now it's One Nation Under Copyright just like Japan.

There's even a moment in "I Fought the Law" where the Dirty Cop that was River's partner actually praises the recently dead Mayor for keeping Night City independent of the NUSA. I feel like, "How bad could it by comparison" and then I think, "It's Militech. It could be worse."

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 22nd 2023 at 1:27:09 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
InkDagger Since: Jul, 2014
#3871: Sep 22nd 2023 at 9:13:44 AM

It's honestly why my pitch for a sequel would be Militech/NUSA re-invading Night City. Arasaka and Militech are both nationalistic pieces of shit, but Militech, much like it's USA origins, will bomb and pillage for the resources it lusts after.

I think it would be cool to have a game where the player's home turf is the target of Corpo Warfare. I think you could lean much much harder into the "punk" aspects of the genre without losing that "I'm trying to make ends meet/survive" aspect that worked so well in 2077.

Also, far as datamining goes, no, Panam is not Trace's kid, though Trace was in the game at one point... kinda. It was outright confirmed Trace was the kid Rogue called in the Sun ending and that ending had multiple drafted and deleted emails trying to talk to Trace. This is presumably in tandem with Saul = Santiago.

Panam also had an adopted kid at one point too. Kinda.

Edited by InkDagger on Sep 22nd 2023 at 9:15:35 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#3872: Sep 22nd 2023 at 9:48:20 AM

[up]Nomads are explicitly collectivist in the Cyberpunk setting (which is an interesting twist) so adoption has a little different meaning for them than other people.

As I understand, Saul was originally supposed to be Trace. But that doesn't mean that Panam isn't related since Saul and she aren't related as far as I can tell other than belonging to the same Clan.

And my only objection for invasion is that a war would pretty obviously upset any other possible stories.

(I am intrigued though and admit I'd probably side with Militech because the home team isn't exactly showing any reason why they're a better group for the people)

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 22nd 2023 at 9:51:29 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
InkDagger Since: Jul, 2014
#3873: Sep 22nd 2023 at 10:08:47 AM

I meant adopted in a... less literal sense? Like, she had a tag-along-kid kinda situation. But it was weird. Hard to get into because there aren't many answers. But V had the option to outright ask if they were Panam's kid and she says no.

And, no, Saul was not Trace nor is there evidence for that. I can absolutely confirm Saul used to be Santiago as I've *personally* found almost every Saul line had a Santiago copy. And this wasn't a "Saul/Sanitago is determined by choice" but a late stage development one.

This would obviously give the Nomad ending a little more gravitas that base game doesn't have; Sun has Smasher kill Rogue but not before she takes out a bunch of his health. Star just has... Smasher kill a guy we never really were given much reason to like. One has an emotional punch the other doesn't, but makes more sense if that was Santiago.

I would not be in favor of Militech if because... well, they ARE (in a hypothetical sequel) performing all-out-war on a city. Civilians are caught in the cross fire. They wouldn't look good no matter how you cut it. I see it as less of a "One leader is morally better" and more that the transition is inherently immoral and violent. Which I think would actually be a compelling tension for a choice driven rpg to examine.

I see Militech invading as the logical conclusion to 2077's endings; Arasaka was the only thing protecting NC from being a battle ground at the end of the Unification war and now they're gone. Why wouldn't Militech roll back up with a bunch of tanks?

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#3874: Sep 22nd 2023 at 10:38:18 AM

Seems they removed the Elon Musk cameo he demanded at antique gunpoint. Really are improving the game.

(Insert joke here about how the real Elon Musk cameo is the quest about insane self driving cars)

arcanephoenix Resident Bollywood Nerd from Bombay, India Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
Resident Bollywood Nerd
#3875: Sep 22nd 2023 at 11:57:40 AM

Where was this cameo? I know Grimes voiced a character in a sidequest.


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