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A thread to discuss self-driving cars and other vehicles. No politics, please.

Technology, commercial aspects, legal considerations and marketing are all on-topic.


  • Companies (e.g. Tesla Inc.) are only on-topic when discussing their self-driving products and research, not their wider activities. The exception is when those wider activities directly impact (or are impacted by) their other business areas - e.g. if self-driving car development is cut back due to losses in another part of the business.

  • Technology that's not directly related to self-driving vehicles is off-topic unless you're discussing how it might be used for them in future.

  • If we're talking about individuals here, that should only be because they've said or done something directly relevant to the topic. Specifically, posts about Tesla do not automatically need to mention Elon Musk. And Musk's views, politics and personal life are firmly off-topic unless you can somehow show that they're relevant to self-driving vehicles.

    Original post 
Google is developing self-driving cars, and has already tested one that has spent over 140,000 miles on the road in Nevada, where it is street-legal. They even let a blind man try a self-driving car. The car detects where other cars are in relation to it, as well as the curb and so on, follows speed limit and traffic laws to the letter, and knows how to avoid people. It also uses a built-in GPS to find its way to places.

Cadillac plans to release a scaled back, more simple version of similar technology by 2015 - what they call "Super Cruise", which isn't total self-driving, but does let you relax on highways. It positions your car in the exact center of a lane, slows down or speeds up as necessary, and is said to be meant for ideal driving conditions (I'm guessing that means ideal weather, no rain or snow, etc.).

I am looking forward to such tech. If enough people prefer to drive this way, and the technology works reliably, it could result in safer roads with fewer accidents. Another possibility is that, using GPS and maybe the ability to know ahead of time which roads are most clogged, they can find the quickest route from place to place.

On the other hand, hacking could be a real concern, and I hope it doesn't become a serious threat. It's looking like we're living more and more like those sci-fi Everything Is Online worlds depicted in fiction for a long time.

(Mod edited to replace original post)

Edited by Mrph1 on Mar 29th 2024 at 4:19:56 PM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#251: Jul 28th 2019 at 6:36:24 PM

Note that the vans aren't delivering groceries directly to the consumers. Rather, they are delivering groceries ordered online by the consumers from the main warehouse to its neighborhood stores in Bentonville, Arkansas. The customers can then go and pick up their orders from the stores.

Edited by M84 on Jul 28th 2019 at 9:37:15 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#252: Jul 29th 2019 at 7:28:06 AM

That's a lot different. I know some companies have been experimenting with the idea of automated home deliveries, but I didn't think the problem was anywhere near being solved. Automated delivery between warehouses and stores is much simpler.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#253: Jul 29th 2019 at 4:18:18 PM

Since direct to the customer deliver seems to make the most sense in a densely populated urban environment, apartment buildings and locations without direct access to a sidewalk will be the primary challenge. I suppose the vehicle could honk it's horn/send a text and make the customer walk out and retrieve the package directly from the vehicle.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
danime91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#254: Jul 29th 2019 at 4:43:54 PM

So kind of like what Grub Hub does, at least in my experience of using it. When they get close, they send a call and I walk out to pick up my order from the car.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#255: Jul 29th 2019 at 7:49:13 PM

Not everyone can easily walk out of their home/apartment building to retrieve a delivery. Also, curb space in a city is at a premium and people will get very mad at a delivery vehicle hogging the space while the customer makes their way down from the 30th floor or whatever.

For this to be at all reasonable, the buildings themselves would need to be designed to accommodate "sit and wait" traffic to a very high degree. In the end, self-driving cars in fleet mode (robo-taxis, robo-deliveries) will change how access to housing, offices, and commercial spaces is designed. People won't go to their cars in a lot or garage; people will be picked up and driven. So you need a lot of room for cars to drive up, embark/disembark, and then drive out, but very little room to park cars.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 29th 2019 at 10:51:10 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#256: Sep 28th 2019 at 8:03:56 AM

CNN: Tesla introduces new software update that comes with Netflix and 'Car-aoke'

..."Car-aoke"? Really? Someone was paid to come up with that?

...Anyway, it also comes with stuff like Netflix and Hulu.

With the update, Tesla customers who drive a Model S, Model X or Model 3 will be able to connect their Netflix (NFLX), Hulu and You Tube accounts to the center console to watch — as long as they're parked. China-based customers will be able to connect iQiyi and Tencent Video, and Tesla said it expects to add more streaming and entertainment services over time. Also available in the center console will be Tesla tutorial videos to teach customers more about their vehicles, something Tesla executives mentioned as a priority on the company's last earnings call. They said many customers visit service centers simply out of confusion over how to use the autopilot feature. Tesla is also expanding music offerings, with access to Spotify Premium, and adding games to Tesla Arcade.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#257: Sep 28th 2019 at 8:15:22 AM

They also spelled Spotify "Spötify". Someone at Tesla is having a bit of fun.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#258: Sep 30th 2019 at 11:00:58 AM

The Verge: Tesla’s Smart Summon feature is already causing chaos in parking lots across America

Tesla’s new “Smart Summon” feature is already causing confusion — and some minor fender benders. It’s another example of the real-world complications that arise from Tesla’s willingness to beta test features using customers.

Smart Summon is the new name for Tesla’s autonomous parking feature, which enables a Tesla vehicle to leave a parking space and navigate around obstacles to its owner. Tesla owners who purchased the Full Self-Driving option on their car received it as part of the version 10 software update that went out last week. Using just a smartphone, you can “summon” your car to you from a maximum distance of 200 feet, as long as the car is within your line of sight.

Videos of Tesla owners testing the new feature have already began popping up on social media over the weekend, and wouldn’t you know it, it’s kind of a mess. One Tesla owner tweeted about “front bumper damage,” while another claimed their Model 3 “ran into the side of [a] garage.” A video of a near collision with a speeding SUV left the owner feeling their test of Smart Summon “didn’t go so well.” Another Tesla was filmed seemingly confused by pedestrians and other cars as it tried to make its way across a Walmart parking lot.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#259: Sep 30th 2019 at 12:03:01 PM

I think Tesla gets away with this because Summon is still clearly marked as beta. Frankly, it's a decision driven by the need for data. It only gets better rapidly when a lot of people are using it, much like Autopilot. As the maximum speed is 5 mph, you aren't going to have much serious damage.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#260: Oct 1st 2019 at 7:08:06 PM

Endgadget: Tesla reportedly buys AI startup that helps self-driving cars see

It's safe to say that Tesla's self-driving efforts haven't gone smoothly. It took the better part of a year for Smart Summon to arrive, and there's not much time left to fulfill goals of full self-driving (on city streets) before the end of 2019. The automaker might speed its progress soon enough, though. CNBC claims that Tesla is buying the computer vision startup Deep Scale. The company specializes in making accurate AI vision technology practical for the low-power, low-memory chips often found in cars.

The deal hasn't been officially confirmed. We've asked Tesla for comment. However, it's clear that something is afoot. Deep Scale chief Forrest Iandola stated on Linked In that he joined Tesla's Autopilot team "this week," and that he was working on autonomous driving. CNBC sources said that Tesla bought Deep Scale "outright."

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#261: Oct 2nd 2019 at 4:25:04 AM

I saw that in a HyperChange TV video. It's both interesting and disappointing that Autopilot still has so far to go. It's ultimately a data problem, but there's just so much data to deal with. Also, there is a dramatic shortage of skilled AI engineers, so when you find a bunch of really good ones, you grab them as fast as you can.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#262: Oct 4th 2019 at 2:40:31 AM

Business Insider: Videos showing Tesla's Smart Summon feature doing bizarre things have gotten the NHTSA's attention

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) is looking into Tesla's Smart Summon feature, Reuters' David Shepardson first reported.

Smart Summon allows Tesla vehicles with the most robust version of the Autopilot driver-assistance system to drive in parking lots without anyone in the car. Owners must be able to see their vehicle to use the feature and are responsible for the vehicle's actions, Tesla has said.

NHTSA is aware of reports related to Smart Summon and is communicating with Tesla, a NHTSA representative told Business Insider.

"Safety is NHTSA's top priority and the agency will not hesitate to act if it finds evidence of a safety-related defect," the representative said.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#263: Oct 4th 2019 at 3:37:38 AM

By the way, I saw some posts (unsourced, so can't validate) saying that some of the more notorious videos about Smart Summon hitting things were faked.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#264: Oct 4th 2019 at 3:46:37 AM

It they are unsourced it is best to ignore them and wait for more credible reports.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#265: Oct 4th 2019 at 3:58:38 AM

Well, here's a funny video about a very confused cop pulling over a Tesla for violating a parking lot stop sign while on Smart Summon. Yes, it is staged, so don't take it too seriously.

  1. Teslas should respect stop signs on Smart Summon
  2. Parking lot stop signs are not enforceable

Edited by Fighteer on Oct 4th 2019 at 6:59:27 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#266: Oct 11th 2019 at 8:17:08 PM

Electrek: Tesla CEO Elon Musk talks self driving; $1,000 price increase coming Nov. 1

In a series of tweets today, Tesla CEO Elon Musk talked about future plans for Tesla’s Full Self-Driving capability. Notably, three weeks from now on November 1, Tesla will go through with a planned price increase for Full Self Driving software, increasing the price by $1,000.

The software currently costs $6,000 as an option on any Tesla vehicle. This cost will rise to $7,000 at the end of this month.

SF Chronicle: Tesla Smart Summon is glitchy ‘science experiment,’ Consumer Reports says

Consumer Reports tested Tesla’s new Smart Summon feature and found it wanting.

Smart Summon “was glitchy and at times worked intermittently, without a lot of benefit for consumers,” the product and service-testing organization said this week.

Tesla released Smart Summon in late September in an over-the-air software update to owners who had paid $6,000 for “full self-drive capability.” Owners can use a smartphone to command their Tesla to turn itself on, back out of its parking space and drive to the phone holder’s location. The car relies on onboard sensors and computers to help it move forward, back up, steer, accelerate and decelerate on its own, braking if necessary.

Consumer Reports tested Smart Summon on a Tesla Model 3 over several days at its Connecticut test track and in nearby parking lots. Among its findings:

The car sometimes seemed confused about where it was, and sometimes stopped for no apparent reason. In one case, the system worked in one section of a private lot, but in another section it mistakenly thought it was on a public road and shut itself down.

The car drove slowly, which “could be” good for safety, Consumer Reports said. But it took a long time to reach the summoner.

The car didn’t always keep to its lane in parking lots.

Edited by M84 on Oct 11th 2019 at 11:20:52 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#267: Oct 11th 2019 at 8:22:58 PM

Yep. That's been the plan for a while: to gradually raise the price as new features get rolled out to the software. This gives a huge incentive for early adopters.

Tesla is still sitting on a truckload of operating cash from FSD sales that it can't recognize as revenue because the feature isn't complete. This is really good news for its future financials, since it's already incurred the costs and all that money is like free profit. That's probably one of the reasons why the company has positive cash flow but negative profits.

Elon hasn't been super noisy these days about FSD being "feature complete" by Q4 2019, which was something he was hyping earlier in the year. Tesla's recent acquisitions of talent in visual AI indicates much more work to be done. However, I've also heard claims of Tesla cars with beta software passing even Level 3 and 4 tests. It's really hard to say what's the reality here, but the fact that the retail price of FSD is going up hints towards significant releases on the horizon.

Smart Summon is definitely an order of magnitude improvement from the previous version, but still has a lot of work before it's completely reliable. Having it in the wild and in active use provides terabytes of data that can be used to make it better. Elon made some noise about self-parking on Twitter the other day, but cautioned that it's really wonky at present.

Edited by Fighteer on Oct 11th 2019 at 11:30:07 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#268: Oct 11th 2019 at 9:34:18 PM

Tuning hyperparameters is a miserable job on small scales. I don't envy anyone who has to wait possibly days for training to complete.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#269: Oct 16th 2019 at 9:12:53 PM

(Ars Technica): A startup company called Optimus Ride (no, really) is promising to launch self-driving shuttles for suburban rides in 2020. The company is currently operating shuttles with prototype self-driving software, but with two human operators supervising.

Unlike the much broader objectives of Waymo (a Google subsidiary) and Tesla, Optimus Ride (snerk) is training its software only to operate on certain roads at certain speeds (currently maxing out at 20 mph). This should help it settle into a niche market of point-to-point automated transit using cheap, clean vehicles with 6 to 8 passengers per trip.

Edited by Fighteer on Oct 16th 2019 at 12:15:52 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#270: Oct 17th 2019 at 5:49:43 PM

That sort of small-scale solution could be very useful for things like, say, shuttle buses at airports. Short-distance low-speed trips that are none the less made many times a day. You'd get all the benefits of self-driving cars, but at a tiny fraction of the cost of solving the general "drive anywhere" problem. Seems like an obvious stepping stone to getting the larger problem solved, but this is the first time I'm hearing about this sort of application for some reason.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#271: Oct 30th 2019 at 7:48:20 PM

A reminder that the $1000 price increase for the "Full Self-Driving" option happens tomorrow.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#272: Oct 30th 2019 at 7:55:06 PM

At the Tesla earnings call for Q3 2019, Elon said that they are still hoping for Full Self-Driving to be feature-complete and released to early access program members by Dec 31, 2019. It's worth noting that "feature-complete" in this case means that it will be capable of driving in all three regimes (highway, city, and parking lot) with supervision.

  • Highway self-driving is already extremely good, with something like 8 times reduced accident rate over human drivers depending on how you read the data.
  • Smart Summon is expected to improve rapidly with all the data they've been getting from users (over a million sessions logged as of the call), with only Smart Park left to release in this regime.
  • City driving with stoplight and stop sign recognition is the last piece, and it's been in beta for some time (Elon Musk himself drives a car with the beta software). It's also the most difficult problem to solve.

Once we get city driving and Smart Park added to the package, Teslas will be capable of complete autonomy from parking lot to parking lot. The next steps will be to refine and improve the software until it can be used without supervision and finally to get regulators to agree.

[up] If only I could buy a Tesla now, I would. Just not in my financial capability.

Edited by Fighteer on Oct 30th 2019 at 10:56:24 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#273: Nov 13th 2019 at 2:00:50 PM

Teslarati: Tesla Autopilot video suggests that dogs are now recognized as pedestrian objects

A feature of Tesla's Full Self-Driving software that not everyone knows about is that it can show you exactly what it's seeing by marking and classifying objects in camera images. This diagnostic data is stored and transmitted to Tesla to train its neural networks, and owners can look at it to get a glimpse "under the hood", so to speak.

Well, an undocumented update in the latest over-the-air software release (19.36.2.1) appears to allow the software to recognize dogs, classifying them as "pedestrians". Teslas on Autopilot have already been documented avoiding animals in roadways, and the ability to detect and avoid dogs, cats, and other animals is crucial to the city driving component, which is still in development and expected to see limited release by the end of 2019.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 13th 2019 at 5:04:29 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#274: Nov 21st 2019 at 7:06:37 AM

I'd be remiss if I didn't post this.

Teslarati: US Senator wants Tesla Autopilot disabled because drivers are sleeping behind the wheel

Tesla’s Autopilot and Full Self-Driving (FSD) features received criticism from U.S. Senator Ed Markey during a Senate Commerce Committee hearing on November 20. The Democratic senator from the State of Massachusetts stated the electric car maker should disable its “Autopilot” feature until the company implements safeguards that would decrease the possibility of drivers using the system to sleep while operating their vehicle.

The NHTSA is apparently going to speak with Tesla about this, but the article points out the many ways in which Autopilot already works to discourage inattentive driving. If it fails to detect that the driver is holding the steering wheel, it will produce a series of increasingly serious warnings and sounds, then safely stop the car with the hazard lights on.

Frankly, government action is the one way in which the push for self-driving could slow down: as legislators who don't understand the technology seek to regulate it.

One thing to note is that Tesla FSD is quite a bit safer than a human on highways regardless of whether the driver is paying attention.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 21st 2019 at 4:10:04 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#275: Nov 21st 2019 at 7:39:39 PM

It will take awhile, but eventually we will realize that we should be encouraging people to nap while the car drives, because it's overall safer that way. Eventually the entire concept of a human "driver" will start to fade away. The old fogeys may have to die off first.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.

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