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I think it stands to reason that these two are the same trope. We should combine them. Any work that one regards as 'villicious will be regarded as needed to be dropped by another. The only thing we can agree on is that they're more or less heavy-handed in Main Theme delivery.
I've felt this way for a while (two sides of the YMMV coin are still on the same coin), but it's only really starting to bother me lately, because I keep seeing works that are either marked with both, or I find a work that someone regarded as 'villicious that I regard as needed to be dropped. (I was the one who marked 21stCenturyBreakdown with Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped.)
EDIT: I didn't know Heavy-Handed already linked to Anvillicious. That makes it my suggestion for the replacement name.
edited 5th May '12 9:32:59 PM by ScanVisor
But they're clearly not duplicates.
Does it seem like Anvilicious is "heavy-handed, Done Badly" and Some Anvils Need Tobe Dropped is "heavy-handed, Done Well" ?
I see the 'heavyness' of an aesop and its validity as clearly separate things. They can certainly overlap, but unless all examples of one are also examples of the other (in the eyes of any given individual) they're still distinct tropes.
I counter that Tropes Are Not Bad explains why these two should not be seperate. I mean, I tried twice to get the Tropes Are Not Bad version of Large Ham through the YKTTW, and people were having none of it because of TANB. I can understand and accept that, but if that's the standard we're going on, then there's no reason these two should be seperate.
Typically Heavy-Handed is an accusation, not a compliment, so I would say Anvillicious is mostly accusatory.
Not every example of one will be in the other, but the theory of YMMV should be that there's at least one person out there who agrees with the heavy-handedness of something.
^ This makes a lot of sense. We say quite clearly on The Same But More that "X but done well" is not a valid reason for making a new page.
So that means Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped is "Anvilicious Is Not Bad" ? Then I agree with merging, to the tune of that calling something Anvilicious is usually but not always a bad thing, just as using the words "Mary Sue" is usually a complaint.
edited 6th May '12 10:20:31 AM by Stratadrake
Just a note: Anvilicious is one of the Tropes Of Legend, so it can't be scrapped. Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped doresn't seem to have the same kind of protection.
So, basically, Anvilicious is the negative and Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped the positive side of a heavy-handed aesop?
"Some anvils need to be dropped" is still a nice phrase though. We could put it in the Anvilicious description and leave it as a redirect.
Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped is already on the sugar wiki - why do we need to do anything to it?
You are getting the wrong page. Anvils That Needed to Be Dropped is on Sugar Wiki.
So the idea is to leave Anvils That Needed to Be Dropped, but merge Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped?
edited 6th May '12 11:14:16 AM by abk0100
Now that I see Some_Anvils was already a no-example definition page, it seems a deal more likely that it was being treated as a subtrope (for lack of a more precise term) of Anvilicious. In that case, it likely would fall under The Same But Less Bad, and a merge does seem to be in order.
Also, if the merger happens, I suggest removing the list (since any work could be perceived as anvillicious, even if it's very subtle), and simply having it be a YMMV tag.
Since they're both subjective YMMV pages — the latter even more so — I'm not seeing the problem here. Leaving things as they are seems like the best option to me.
Concurred. Anvilicious is about works that are unsubtle - and as a rule, this doesn't help, since obvious Aesops are often just seen as distraction.
Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped is a subtrope and a reminder, and is exampleless. It is not the same, as the unsubtleness of Anvil is not always distracting inthis case.
Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped, is important enough to warrant a distinct page, and including the whole text into Anvilicious would only distract.
Except why should we have a sugar wiki to essentially defend something? We don't accuse or defend at TV Tropes, we discuss.
The purpose of the Sugar Wiki is to point out the best parts of works, the Darth Wiki to point out the worst. Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped rests too vaguely between the two to sit on either one, and again, The Same But More, Tropes Are Not Bad and the Your Mileage May Vary standard state that a trope done well is not itself a trope.
edited 6th May '12 5:08:06 PM by ScanVisor
So how do we decide whether to change a trope?
You make a crowner to take a vote; see How Crowners Work.
I don't follow your logic here at all. All of the examples on it and the Sugar Wiki page will naturally belong on Anvilicious, because it's a subtrope.
I wouldn't mind seeing a mirror Darth Wiki trope, along the lines of Some Anvils Should Have Stayed At The Smithy (sigh), though I suppose that might invite too much Complaining About Shows You Dont Like.
edited 6th May '12 9:06:15 PM by BrentLaabs
Or complaining about Aesops you don't like, or complaining about moralizing. Still, isn't that what Darth Wiki is for?
No. Darth Wiki is for tropes which have more "adult-oriented" examples/descriptions, and are thus ineligible for some ads.
The point of Anvils That Needed to Be Dropped is not whether a work does them well. It is about works which wouldn't work if they were not Anvilicious. Merely being OK despite anvil is not this.
edited 7th May '12 5:04:52 AM by SS13
Ok, let me again try to identify the problem as I see it:
Most YMMV pages I see marked with Anvillicious are also marked with Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped, and if not, (considering I'm visiting pages of stuff I have experience with, typically) I usually end up marking one or the other to the point where they have both.
For one, the Sugar Wiki that attaches to some SANTBD is basically just a list of Main Themes, so that's where they ought to be, IMO. It wouldn't be hard to just graft the one page on to the other with an especially persistent person knowledgeable of their Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V functions To my knowledge, there is no Anvillicious Darth Wiki page. Actually, it's worse than that, we have people complaining about shows (and that comes with a lot of guaranteed Complaining About Shows You Don't Watch) on the main Anvillicious page, whilst we regulate the people who liked that part of it to the Sugar Wiki. But again, these are both people just listing Main Theme, and commenting on not necessarilly the explicit nature of how that theme is delivered, but how they perceive it to be delivered, which I do not regard as Trope Worthy.
A good example: Neon Genesis Evangelion is regarded as seriously Heavy-Handed right? Well, to be perfectly honest, in comparison to modern anime, it's far less direct. (See something like Full Metal Alchemist*). Also, anyone who has ever read The Bible through and through will tell you it has about as much subtlety as Speed Metal. NGE doesn't even come close to that.
Y'see, this is one of the few tropes I can think of that has everything to do with audience perception, (that, unlike say, C Mo A, Narm, or And The Fandom Rejoiced, isn't marked as explicitly such) rather than what we can objectively observe about the work itself.
edited 7th May '12 5:12:10 AM by ScanVisor
@ 22: No, that is not what Darth Wiki is for. It's purpose is getting blurry, but it's mostly Just for Fun. It is not a dumping ground for the more mature tropes/works. Pages are tagged as mature and stay on the main wiki.
Also, @ Tropers/Routerie, yes, I personally would like the end result of this to have the Anvillicious page be marked at the end with "However, some anvils need to be dropped.'
edited 7th May '12 3:06:19 PM by ScanVisor
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