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Belief is not necessarily a central element of religion

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Tiph Since: Aug, 2011
#101: May 7th 2012 at 12:58:28 AM

Feelings to me seems to imply an emotional state more than a belief. Belief comes first, and the feelings around that belief really depend on context. My feelings toward religion have been mostly positive, but occasionally can be difficult obvs. Same is true of anything I am sure.

And, again, there is the term "belief in belief" and "Crisis of faith." If "belief" is just saying you think something is true or deciding to pursue a given course of action as if you believe something is true, these statements would be absolutely meaningless.

Afaict, "belief in belief" is just a phrase thrown around some skeptical circles—namely the belief that religion is a good thing. I'm not even sure where you are fitting this in.

"Crisis of Faith" is a lot different than "crisis in belief"—Faith is based upon trust specifically. I can speak only of the Christian conception of Faith here (from which the phrase originates), but Faith is seen as much more of a spiritual gift and virtue along with Hope+Charity. You don't really "believe in faith" or "believe in courage"—I mean, you can certainly believe "Faith is a good thing" or "Hope is a bad thing". But when it comes to growing these virtues, its more a matter of nurturing them over time—and similarly, they can fall into decay or be damaged as well.

edited 7th May '12 12:59:17 AM by Tiph

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#102: May 7th 2012 at 1:12:07 AM

Well, for everyone who thinks you can literally believe whatever you want, I'm going to ask you to believe that you cannot believe in whatever you want, just to prove that you can in fact believe in whatever you want. And then ask yourselves, "do I truly believe that I just choose to believe that I cannot choose what to believe?"

Ask yourselves what that even means. I, for one, am not going to lose much sleep over it. Night.

Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#103: May 7th 2012 at 1:21:06 AM

And then ask yourselves, "do I truly believe that I just choose to believe that I cannot choose what to believe?"
If I made the modification to my belief system that you mention, my answer would probably be along the lines of "no, I did not choose to believe that I cannot choose what to believe, that kind of choice is impossible to me". Nonetheless, as I can see from the vantage position of now, I would be incorrect tongue

I am not in the habit of updating my knowledge model with information that I consider false; but if you want, I have no difficulties starting "I cannot choose what to believe" and see what that would follow, or how I should behave if that was true. If for any reason I chose to do so routinely, then for all intents and purposes I would believe in that (false) statement.

Night.

edited 7th May '12 1:24:38 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#104: May 7th 2012 at 7:20:54 AM

Well, the bottom line is that we're fundamentally operating from different definitions of belief. Mine is, you know, the actual definition, because it's more consistent with what people generally mean when they say believe:

"Oh, he's just saying that to get votes-he doesn't actually BELIEVE that..." A politician that is pandering for votes. His policy can even reflect what he's saying, but given his personality and stated views on similar matters, we can induce that that's likely not what he actually holds to be true.

You can make the argument that that definition of belief isn't "useful" but I would argue that that's misleading. The notion of "believe in god or X" means something specific-and by changing away from the "useless" definition, you're changing the meaning of it.

In any event, I would say that acting as if something is true and believing it are different if only because you need a CONSCIOUS effort to uphold that action-imagine that every time you're about to make an argument you have to stop and say to yourself "no wait-" That's the kind of distinction we're making. It may be subconcious, but it's still your belief.

By the same token, I don't believe (HA!) that it's (generally) appropriate to judge someone by their beliefs, because they're not actual choices.

Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#105: May 7th 2012 at 9:12:56 AM

"Oh, he's just saying that to get votes-he doesn't actually BELIEVE that..."
The reading of this seems consistent with my interpretation, I think. I care little about what a politician "feels": it may well be that, when they are making some sort of grandiose statement, they are "feeling" what they are saying that they are feeling. What I may care about is what a politician believes, what he accepts as true and what he rejects as false — that may give me a better idea of what they might decide to do given certain circumstances.

I would argue that the kind of belief that you mention is something that is obtained once an attitude is internalized: once you've been working under one assumption for a while, one starts applying it or seeing opportunities for applying without having to give conscious thought to the matter. This can be both an advantage and a disadvantage. I don't quote often Yudkowsky, and I disagree on a number of his assumptions; but I think that that's more or less what he calls a "cached thought".

But even with respect to the beliefs in your sense, I think that one can exert some degree of conscious control. It takes time and effort, and it's not an instantaneous process; but it can be done.

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#106: May 7th 2012 at 9:39:05 AM

Certainly. That's what I referenced with brainwashing. Really it's just mental reconfiguration. But like I said-there's a distinction between deciding to go running, and deciding to become good at running. The latter is a decision, but the process of being good at running is a result of decisions of how to act. Likewise, shaping ones beliefs is deciding upon actions (even if they're mental exercises) that will then shape those beliefs.

The trick, of course, is that such mental reconfiguration is not simple, nor is it something particularly well understood. If one is trying to reconfigure one's prejudices to hold something to be true, they necessarily know that they don't hold it to be true because otherwise they wouldn't undergo that course of action-this recognition constantly reinforces itself during the process. That's not to say it's impossible to overcome one's inherent beliefs, but it's difficult to do so consciously.

Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#107: May 10th 2012 at 1:45:34 PM

Thread hop: read first and last page.

Religion does not need belief.

Atheists will sometimes go to church for community and meditation. I am not a Muslim, but I will fast and preform my own prayers during Ramadan as a show of solidarity and encouragement with my Muslim friends because their community is so small. These are examples of how religion builds community, but not belief.

Religion can also be more of a cultural exchange. Easter, St. Patrick's, St. Valentines, Cinco de Mayo, all of these holidays have been taken out of a religious context and placed in a cultural context. People can participate in religious traditions or symbols without having belief. I interviewed a woman who wears the hijab, not because she is Muslim, but because she is Arab and considers it a cultural marker.

Someone can live the traditions, morals, and duties of a faith and be religious without believing. This is not a bad thing to me. If anything, it only helps the religious community in general.

The Abrahamic faiths stress a need for a personal relationship with God. So to their fundamentals, belief is strongly pushed.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
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