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Belief is not necessarily a central element of religion

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abstractematics Since: May, 2011
#76: May 6th 2012 at 9:45:57 PM

[up]I would argue that what you said is impossible by definition, but like I said, we may need a new thread.

Now using Trivialis handle.
Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#77: May 6th 2012 at 9:47:50 PM

Which part is impossible?

abstractematics Since: May, 2011
#78: May 6th 2012 at 9:49:20 PM

Taking a statement or principle by faith is required as the starting point for the rest of the belief.

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Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#79: May 6th 2012 at 9:52:18 PM

Well isn't all religion based on the fact you need to have faith in something you cannot tangibly see?

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#80: May 6th 2012 at 9:53:03 PM

Obviously, we must operate from SOME axioms-ala "I think therefore I am" and all that. But you seem to be confusing selecting an axiom to be used as part of reasoning with believing that axiom to be true. I can argue that God exists using axioms I don't believe in, that doesn't mean I believe god to be true.

The crux of this thread is "BELIEF" is not necessarily a central element of religion, right? So isn't having an actually meaningful operating definition of belief rather important? Instead of just deciding that whatever definition there is to belief, it must involve choice.

As for "no more so than unit measurements-" The definition of a second or a minute isn't in question. The definition of "belief" is.

edited 6th May '12 9:54:09 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

abstractematics Since: May, 2011
#81: May 6th 2012 at 9:58:28 PM

Well, we can't tell if space is discrete or continuous, for example. That's the kind of thing we take by faith and try to support it but not prove.

The crux of this thread is "BELIEF" is not necessarily a central element of religion, right? So isn't having an actually meaningful operating definition of belief rather important? Instead of just deciding that whatever definition there is to belief, it must involve choice.

Well, would it affect the answer whether we use your or my meaning of the word?

As for "no more so than unit measurements-" The definition of a second or a minute isn't in question. The definition of "belief" is.

Unit definitions is a philosophical term. It means you need definitions that can't be described in other things.

Now using Trivialis handle.
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#82: May 6th 2012 at 10:01:27 PM

If I were having an argument with you about the Physics of Space and Time, and the crux of my argument was that your definitions of second and minute were inaccurate because it was inconsistent with X, then yes, relying on existing definitions would be begging the question.

As for "would it make a difference?" the answer is yes. If we're talking about your belief-whatever it means (I STILL have no idea what you see belief as meaning) then that's one thing, but if we're talking about belief as in, you know, thinking something is true, then that's not a choice, and if, say, a religion bases your viability as an individual off of what you believe, that's important. Like I've said repeatedly, there is such a thing as a crisis of faith.

abstractematics Since: May, 2011
#83: May 6th 2012 at 10:03:26 PM

But I don't think that's what OP was talking about. It was whether "religion" is really about its proclaimed principles or about its rites and customs.

What we're talking about is the problem of free will.

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TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#84: May 6th 2012 at 10:05:04 PM

The OP was talking about how Christianity, for instance, has a "believe or suffer" policy whereas non-abrahamic religions had a "follow da r00lz or suffer" policy.

abstractematics Since: May, 2011
#85: May 6th 2012 at 10:09:12 PM

The OP's post seems to be more of putting emphasis on the nature/will verses following the rules, not defining what belief is.

Anyway, if there's one truth, how can two people believe different things if it's not a matter of choice? At the very least, it should be within your choice to see whether the presumptive conclusion will or will not change based on additional investigation.

edited 6th May '12 10:09:53 PM by abstractematics

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Tiph Since: Aug, 2011
#86: May 6th 2012 at 10:25:51 PM

You can and do shape what is in your heart; and just because you don't "believe in God" doesn't mean you can't. I highly doubt anyone here really has a brain which is specially hardwired to exclude religion, God, or anything else held by the bulk of people. A poster earlier called changing your beliefs "self-brainwashing" which is an oxymoron: brainwashing and "mind control" (themselves rather sketchy subjects) are about an outside person trying to exert their influence on another. You can and should influence yourself to be the person you want to be.

Well isn't all religion based on the fact you need to have faith in something you cannot tangibly see?
No?

From wikipedia: "Religion is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, and worldviews that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values.[1] Many religions have narratives, symbols, traditions and sacred histories that are intended to give meaning to life or to explain the origin of life or the universe. They tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle from their ideas about the cosmos and human nature."

I mean, I guess you can't really see cultural/belief systems and worldviews; but to say its based on "trusting something you can't see" sounds like a pretty sketchy definition.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#87: May 6th 2012 at 10:33:28 PM

Let me make an analogy.

I can choose to go run. I cannot choose to be a good runner, unless I am taking actions that will ensure that I am a good runner (by practicing or something). I'm not saying it's impossible to change what you believe. What I am saying is that it is not a matter of choice, except in an indirect manner. I'm sure I can "brainwash" myself into thinking the sky is green with sufficient amounts of psychotherapy. But I can't simply say "okay, I'm going to henceforth think the sky is green." Human consciousness doesn't work that way.

abstractematics Since: May, 2011
#88: May 6th 2012 at 10:41:13 PM

Once again, I will distinguish between observation and conclusion.

Seeing the sky and saying that sky is blue is essentially an observation, and that's what you're talking about when you say it's not a choice.

That's knowledge, not belief.

However, sky is blue, therefore X, is a statement you make by choice. If you woke up and look at the sky and don't remember what happened last night, you might say "sky is blue, so it's daytime", or "sky is blue, so I'm inside Las Vegas Venetian".

Think about the person that promised to visit you. You know that the person hasn't showed up. Now are you going to believe that the person doesn't want to see you, or that something happened that made the person be late?

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TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#89: May 6th 2012 at 10:48:36 PM

Knowledge is generally held to be true belief (though some epidemiologists contend that if one believes something to be true, and it happens to be true, but the reason why one believes it to be true is unsound, that it's still not knowledge, but I digress).

You're misusing the term. I'm really not sure how else to say this. You choose to give people the benefit of the doubt-but that's not the same thing as choosing to believe the best in them. It's semantics 99% of the time, because we don't exist in a mindreader society, but when it comes to religions that suggest that one must believe in God or go to hell, that's one of the 1%.

To answer your question directly, whether I believe that the person doesn't want to spend time with me or whether I believe that something came up is determined by my personality on the issue. There is no action taken, so it's not a choice. Now, you can use cognitive psychology to shape your personality, so that you "change your thinking" but that's an indirect way of going about it.

edited 6th May '12 10:49:59 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#90: May 6th 2012 at 11:01:16 PM

Thread Hop here:

I'm convinced that relatively few religious people believe in God in the same sense that I believe in gravity. Not that many people (though still quite a few) believe in God as a being that has actual effects on the physical universe. There's not much "God will save me from drinking poison" or even "God caused that earthquake" going around nowadays.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Tiph Since: Aug, 2011
#92: May 6th 2012 at 11:05:29 PM

Again, "brainwashing yourself" goes against the definition of brainwashing. If you are doing it to yourself, it can't be brainwashing in any sort of meaningful sense. The last poster mentioned simply practicing the religion; and I'd also suggest studying, prayer, meditation and contemplation. Studying/practicing/contemplating something of your own free will is not really brainwashing.

Sometimes there are genuine mental limitations, though I doubt that's the case with anyone here. Your running analogy would be similar to someone who is severely mentally disabled, and you are right, they might lack some ability to understand God. Mental illness and irreligion tend to be correlated, so that might play a slight role in making it difficult for some (?), but even then I think it would be a stretch to say that it becomes "impossible". Observation is different from beliefs (though you could still redefine certain words, if you really wanted to?). It is possible for a person to hold nearly any non-idiosyncratic belief. Human consciousness really does "work that way" as evidenced by the vast majority of folk who believe in God. Before coming to my own religion, I tried out a few of them myself.

abstractematics Since: May, 2011
#93: May 6th 2012 at 11:20:54 PM

"To answer your question directly, whether I believe that the person doesn't want to spend time with me or whether I believe that something came up is determined by my personality on the issue. There is no action taken, so it's not a choice. Now, you can use cognitive psychology to shape your personality, so that you "change your thinking" but that's an indirect way of going about it."

I disagree. The personality might make you lean on one direction or another, but you can choose contrary to that. You're aware that such possibilities exist and you're choosing to accept or reject them.

Now using Trivialis handle.
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#94: May 6th 2012 at 11:25:54 PM

Okay abstract, if your personality is such that you're not seeing where I'm coming from, arguing is pointless ;P

And it's not about lacking the ability to understand God. It's that the evidence-to me and many others-simply does not lead to the conclusion "God exists." what evidence is required to come to that conclusion is dependent upon one's personalities.

edited 6th May '12 11:27:57 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

abstractematics Since: May, 2011
#95: May 6th 2012 at 11:29:18 PM

[up]If you're arguing in terms of psychology and personality, well, I agree with Tiph that while that can compel you to lean on one direction or another, it doesn't preclude choice.

With your previous posts, however, I found that you were talking about something else - the pieces of knowledge where you build up your belief, rather than the belief itself.

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Wulf Gotta trope, dood! from Louisiana Since: Jan, 2001
Gotta trope, dood!
#96: May 6th 2012 at 11:35:34 PM

I'm with Tomu on belief. Believing in something to me, implies that you feel that it's true. A person who doesn't believe in God doesn't feel that there is a sentient force which created the universe. Someone who just goes through the motions is just acting as though they do— it's not true belief. You can say "The sky is green," and act like it's true, telling people "yeah, when I look at the sky it's green to me," but unless you actually feel that that's true, you don't believe it.

They lost me. Forgot me. Made you from parts of me. If you're the One, my father's son, what am I supposed to be?
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#97: May 6th 2012 at 11:46:29 PM

And, again, there is the term "belief in belief" and "Crisis of faith." If "belief" is just saying you think something is true or deciding to pursue a given course of action as if you believe something is true, these statements would be absolutely meaningless.

I'm really not sure what more argument needs to be made on this.

Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#98: May 7th 2012 at 12:31:12 AM

To be honest, I do indeed find that the concept of "belief in belief" is basically meaningless.

Its main use seems to be to pull ridiculous "you are not believing, you are just believing that you believe" shenanigans.

implies that you feel that it's true.
How I "feel" about a topic depends on a number of factors, most of them irrelevant. You can use the definitions that you prefer, of course; but I find that what I consciously choose to accept as true is more important.

edited 7th May '12 12:36:32 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#99: May 7th 2012 at 12:39:43 AM

Except what you subconsciously believe can still affect your choices, even if you don't realize it's happening.

Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#100: May 7th 2012 at 12:42:16 AM

How much sleep I had last night can affect my choices. That does not mean that it should be taken in account in a theory of belief — or, to be more precise, it should taken as an element that can contribute to the formation of belief, not as part of the definition of belief.

edited 7th May '12 12:43:33 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

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