Game Of Thrones -- Book Spoiler Free Thread

Except for the fact that he already left Cersei over her petty bullshit and his returning to her was completely out of character.

Edited by alliterator on Nov 4th 2019 at 4:57:54 AM

Not really? The whole reason he left her was because she refused to honor her pledge to aid the North and the Targaryens in their war against the Others and he intended to honor that pledge. By this point, the Others and their army of the dead were defeated and destroyed and his pledge fulfilled, and hers no longer applicable.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you

I would disagree. Even if 'Jamie cannot get rid of how toxic Cersei is' was the intention, it certainly wasn't conveyed clearly until the actual Sacking of King's Landing. EVERYONE at my viewings assumed he was pulling a 'Break her heart to save her' (as awful as that is) and going to take Cersei out himself; end the war on his own because he has access to the castle that no one else does.

But then he gets caught and gave the bullshit "You know, I never gave a shit about the people anyway" line which IS COMPLETELY counter to one of the best scenes of his character when he is finally vulnerable to Brienne. We all looked at each other in confusion when he said that and no one bothered to try and contradict it.

If that's where they wanted Jamie's story to end, I think the needed a dozen or more steps between his redemption and his slide back into toxicity. But we skip all of that entirely.

Almost as though his redemption and leaving Cersei was far earlier in the story the books told which would have left time for such a regressive arc. Huh.~

Maybe im biased. Ive thought he was a monster the whole time. I didn't even feel bad he died.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you

I didn't feel bad he died either, but I was already pissed off and disengaged from how terrible the writing had gotten that I couldn't be empathetic at that point.

I was already several drinks deep for similar reasons.

You don't understand. I laughed when Locke took his hand. The only time i was ever on Jaime Lannister's side was when he was rescue kidnapping his daughter.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you

Yes, that's why he left her, but he also declared that he was sick of her, sick of all her petty bullshit. Even after the White Walkers were defeated, the Jaime that did that — that saved Brienne from the bear at his own personal risk and felt proud about the fact that he had saved King's Landing from burning to the ground — would never have gone back to her.

The real reason that Jaime went back to her is because the writers wanted him to.

So, the scene where he saves Brienne? The scene where he talks about killing the Mad King and preventing the burning of King's Landing? Nothing?

Edited by alliterator on Nov 4th 2019 at 9:14:52 AM

I mean, I laughed at that scene too, but more because of the mood whiplash that ensued right after.

Rather a shame for Jaime as his attempt to heroism in the books is more successful I recall.

Edited by slimcoder on Nov 4th 2019 at 10:04:08 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

Good deeds don't wash out the bad. Besides. His own ass lived in KL too. I highly doubt he has some sort of unique love for smallfolk.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you

Nobody is saying it does. But Jaime was never portrayed as someone who cared for nothing and no one except Cersei. Hell, watch the scene again:

He says that he begged the Mad King to surrender, knowing that his father would betray them, knowing that his father would sack the city. And then, when he finally saw just how mad the Mad King was, he killed him and his pyromancer. It was only pride — the Lannister pride — that had him not tell Ned Stark exactly why he had done so.

If Jaime is just an asshole who goes back to being an asshole, then what is the point of his story? Why should we care about him at all? And if you're answer is "We shouldn't," then why did the show dedicate so much time to him? In order for the audience to get invested in a character, a character has to grow and change; if you throw away all that growth and change, that character loses everything that made the audience invested.

Edited by alliterator on Nov 5th 2019 at 7:11:01 AM

I wouldn't even say it's pride. As Jaime points out, Ned probably wouldn't have believed him, even if he told him the whole story - provided Ned's even willing to listen.

Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.

Which I do think is somewhat of a dramatic irony because I get the impression Ned probably WOULD have listened to Jamie. Most of Ned's beef with Jamie stems from said kingslaying so explaining that and putting it in an empathetic light would remove a lot of the reason Ned disliked him in the first place (or, first place as far as book one goes).

It strikes me as Ned isn't the kind of person who cares.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you

The Starks have such an immense hatred of the Lannisters that it sometimes borders on hating them just because they are rich and flamboyant Southerners compared to their stoic & hardy Northerners.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

Tywin is a huge raging asshole.

Cersei is an raging idiot who thinks she's playing 4D Chess when she's using paper cutouts of chess pieces on a board made of fire.

Tyrion is all too happy to use magic fire to slaughter his families enemies till Character Derailment sets in.

Joffrey is a psycho.

And if they hadn't Adapted Out out the Tysha incident and the Kingslayers role as facilitating their fathers lies by having a bunch of men rape Tyrions wife by saying she was just using him you can see why Ned not having the best opinion would still be valid. But that would also require setting Tyrion down the darker path he was clearly going to go down after killing his former lover and father.

The Starks are considerable more put together and tightknit until the show also handled them badly to the point Neds children effectively become Lannisters in all but name.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Nov 5th 2019 at 4:36:25 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

Well I'm not saying their hatred isn't justified just that before they tend to hate a Lannister on sight just cause.

All poor Tyrion does is just being apart of the family & I mean this before he actually does the bad stuff so don't correct me there.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

Hey! Ned did not hate Lancel on sight.

Robert sure did though!

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

Oh, I think Ned looks down upon Tywin and Cersei completely. But Ned has also been known to look at children away from their parents; Theon being a good example. Admittedly, Ned was kind of a distant father figure for Theon, but that's more a criticism of his parenting of all his kids rather than Theon specifically and Ned does see Theon as a son.

I think Ned could have set aside his hatred of the Lannisters if Jamie had been honest, if for Jamie only and not the rest of the Lions. Ned of all people should be able to understand making a hard choice and taking on a poor rep for a moral option, considering Jon Snow.

I'm not saying Ned would be suddenly best buddies with Jamie or something. Particularly since there's plenty of stuff Jamie does that Ned would vehemiantly disagree with, even if Ned probably isn't aware of those events. Being buddies is not going to happen. But at least listen to him? That seems fairly within the bounds of Ned's character who is just and fair to a fault.

Edited by InkDagger on Nov 5th 2019 at 4:42:13 AM

I think Ned would probably believe Jaime, provided Jaime told Ned this upfront and honestly and showed him the evidence (of which there is plenty under KL).

In fact one of the chief reasons Ned seems to distrust Jaime and everyone else is because Jaime never provided a explanation to his deeds. Like if you take this from Ned's side of the story, he walked in to find that A) Tywin Lannister had done a Cavalry Betrayal on The Mad King and sacked King's Landing after promising to aid it B) Jaime had killed the King in direct violation of his oath and was currently sitting on the throne when Ned arrived at the throne room. It does not take a genius to calculate the idea that Jaime and Tywin cooperated this together solely for political gain.

Jaime's story requires some extreme naiveté to believe if you remove the crucial detail of the Wildfire plot, which is the one fact Jaime omits for god knows what reasons. If you remove the wildfire part, then you'd need to believe Jaime got sick of the Mad King's evil right and executed him right when his father arrived to take the city. How convenient for him, isn't? Particularly since Jaime could have simply surrendered, which would be several shades lesser of a crime than executing the man he's charged with protecting (seemingly) for no reason.

Jaime even tries to spin basically this story on his first chat with Ned and Ned doesn't buy it exactly because it sounds too convenient and also a bit insulting when Jaime didn't move a finger to stop the execution of Ned's family but suddenly decided to do "the right thing" when he had nothing to lose. From Ned's side of the story, with 0 knowledge of the wildfire plot, it just makes Jaime sounds like a weasel with no moral backbone.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."

Though the show doesn't make the throne bit as damning as the books where its ridiculously huge so sitting on it because you're tired is absurd.

Yeah, the show's throne looks pretty nice to sit on. In the book, sitting on it was actually super dangerous because it was just, like, a mass of swords.

This is how it should have looked.

Edited by alliterator on Nov 5th 2019 at 5:01:18 AM

She'd wanted it all her life and had given up two sons for it

She likely gripped the damn thing too hard.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you

Jaime doesn't give a shit about the people as a concept. He gives a shit about the people he knows. Even him going North to fight the White Walkers is more about saving Cersei and the baby. That was according to the actor to back in season 7.

Remember that Jaime killing Aerys also saved his skin and his dad's skin so unless you're stupidly suicidal, you're not gonna follow Aerys'command. There are limits.

Edited by MadSkillz on Nov 5th 2019 at 8:41:07 AM

"You can't change the world without getting your hands dirty."

Okay that's not even Jaime anymore.

Which says something about how much they botched his character.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."