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Game Of Thrones -- Book Spoiler Free Thread

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So, this is a thread for newbies to the Game Of Thrones universe to discuss the show without running the risk of being spoiled.

And that's any kind of spoiler, btw, even the "wait and see" kind of spoiler. Everyone should post here if they want to, just be mindful of what you're saying people.

So. Queef of Darkness, amiright? Holy shit the ending to that episode was amazing.

Mod Hat ON

Anyone who posts book spoilers in this thread or corrects, confirms, or josses theories with book knowledge will get their post thumped. Non-book people, feel free to holler a post (little yellow triangle button) if it happens.

If you Holler about a book spoiler, please say what it is in the Holler message.

Mod Hat OFF

edited 8th May '14 11:32:59 AM by Madrugada

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#11401: Nov 1st 2019 at 1:02:09 AM

Jaime killing her is the exact opposite of what is being shot for. There’s no conflict for Jaime.

Narratively, I can why see why it has to be Jon that kills her because of the internal conflict where he has two different impulses at war with each other. His family and his lover. The Starks or the Targaryens. Love or duty.

I get the framing of a man killing his girlfriend reminds people of domestic abuse buuuut in this case, Daenerys is actually the abuser. She holds the power and is the one that’s toxic/controlling toward Jon.

But the optics are really bad especially in D & D’s stupid hands.

I'm not a fan of the whole thing but I can see what the idea is.

Edited by MadSkillz on Nov 2nd 2019 at 9:10:03 AM

OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#11402: Nov 1st 2019 at 5:18:02 AM

And then the script ends up saying that he doesn't actually love his family as much as her and immediately regrets doing it for them.

Won't forgive Sansa for betrayal, especially as she did it before a Godswood tree and made a vow to never tell anyone to him THAT THEY MADE A DELETED SCENE and it says a lot about where their priorities lie.

And the problem is that Dany being "the abuser" happens in the last couple of episodes and makes no sense. She hasn't done anything to "abuse" Jon so it comes across as nonsensical.

Uneven relationships exist sure, but they aren't abusive in themselves. Not unless you're a walking Yes-Man.

Which is the problem, none of it makes a damn bit of sense, and they wanted to make Dany as monstrous as possible to make Jon and Tyrion(Whose Character Derailment has been ongoing since killing his dad) sympathetic for murdering her. They didn't care about Dany's character or how the act never makes sense with her. It's all about making the men feel bad for killing her.

Not to mention they have to, essentially, have everyone actively work to drive Dany insane to prove their claims she's mad right.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Nov 1st 2019 at 5:35:07 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#11403: Nov 1st 2019 at 9:56:56 AM

If you read the thread, yeah, it does make sense for Jaime to kill Dany... he was once an idealist like Sansa, then he was plunged into King’s Landing, killed Aerys to save the city, lost his honor in everyone’s eyes, etc.... and then Dany burns down the whole city. Because of her father’s wildfire. Tragic accident from her point of view, Targaryen madness from Jaime’s point of view. Jaime killing her (and dying in the process) brings him full circle.

Edited by wisewillow on Nov 1st 2019 at 11:10:21 AM

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#11404: Nov 1st 2019 at 10:10:21 AM

"If you read the thread, yeah, it does make sense for Jaime to kill Jaime."

Guess he rolled a 1 on that kill Dany move.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#11405: Nov 1st 2019 at 10:18:24 AM

damn you THAC 0,damn you

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#11406: Nov 1st 2019 at 12:20:26 PM

Lindsay Ellis's videos explain it better:

Okey Dokey!
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#11407: Nov 1st 2019 at 12:21:46 PM

Wise sage Lindsay preaching the truth.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#11408: Nov 1st 2019 at 3:01:59 PM

If you read the thread, yeah, it does make sense for Jaime to kill Dany... he was once an idealist like Sansa, then he was plunged into King’s Landing, killed Aerys to save the city, lost his honor in everyone’s eyes, etc.... and then Dany burns down the whole city. Because of her father’s wildfire. Tragic accident from her point of view, Targaryen madness from Jaime’s point of view. Jaime killing her (and dying in the process) brings him full circle.

Which would redeem him. Redeeming him is not what is being tried for with Jaime. His arc is closer to an addict that tried to escape but realized he couldn't in the end.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#11409: Nov 1st 2019 at 3:03:19 PM

Well this video just came out:

Edited by MadSkillz on Nov 2nd 2019 at 9:08:16 AM

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#11410: Nov 1st 2019 at 3:29:28 PM

Summary.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#11411: Nov 1st 2019 at 3:35:12 PM

[up][up][up] The addict arc (ehhhh wouldn’t say it’s cohesive enough to work) was a tv choice. It’s not accurate to where the books left off, and alternative choices are valid.

It’s not about redemption. It’s about Jaime’s internal sense of what he should do, even though he’s a crappy person in many ways.

Edited by wisewillow on Nov 1st 2019 at 3:37:30 AM

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#11412: Nov 1st 2019 at 4:02:18 PM

@wise It's not a linear arc. Look at where Daenerys leaves off at the end of ASOS verus ADWD.

ASOS! Daenerys decides to stay in Meereen to rule the society and ADWD! Daenerys came away with the idea that she made a mistake.

Like Dany, Jaime doesn't have a linear arc. Eventually, he'll return to Cersei.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#11413: Nov 1st 2019 at 4:02:39 PM

Edited by MadSkillz on Nov 2nd 2019 at 9:09:10 AM

OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#11414: Nov 1st 2019 at 4:09:44 PM

Dany achieved her goals, which was to free slaves, which was always more important in her eyes in the TV series than the books. Lindsay said it best, these were not the characters that were written in the books, and she even points out there's a logical conclusion to Dany reaching that point in the Books. Especially with Griff being the one likely to rule in Cerseis stead. Because Cersei suffers no repercussions for things the shownhad show did have a price to pay, to keep her on the throne to make Dany crazy.

This is why the whole rebuttal of people rationalizing tyranny is what's been going on for ages doesn't work, because the Starks have done just as much fucked up shit, as Lindsay herself points out. From killing an entire family and feeding the sons of their head to him(Who can blame Arya? They were evil men), to Sansa feeding the man who raped her to his dogs(who can blame her? He's have done worse to her)

And these are explicitly framed as empowering moments because they "aren't like other girls".

Since these aren't in the books, it contextualizes a Double Standard the Starks are allowed to have that others are not.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Nov 1st 2019 at 4:18:00 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#11415: Nov 1st 2019 at 4:22:05 PM

Like Dany, Jaime doesn't have a linear arc. Eventually, he'll return to Cersei.
Why? "Because he's an addict" isn't a good answer. There needs to be a solid characterization in place for why he returns to her. After everything that happens to him, after he goes back to rescue Brienne, after he gets fed up with his sister's betrayal again and leaves her, why would he go back to her?

OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#11416: Nov 1st 2019 at 4:47:56 PM

And you know what? The script actually addressed it, but Jaime had to "emote" the feelin of guilt instead. Because Jaime was supposed to feel guilty for sleeping with Brienne. Which, uh, good luck seeing that!

Which hampers these points since it never shows in the show itself. The fact the script has to be required just to answer some things about the plot is not good.

Cersei's deleted miscarriage makes her instability and blind refusal to the end make even more sense in S8.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Nov 1st 2019 at 4:50:09 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
doineedaname from Eastern US Since: Nov, 2010
#11417: Nov 1st 2019 at 5:49:11 PM

And so does the deleted scene with Sansa going to Bran make her nonsense wtih Arya in Winterfell make more sense.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#11418: Nov 1st 2019 at 6:28:19 PM

And so does the deleted scene with Sansa going to Bran make her nonsense wtih Arya in Winterfell make more sense.
Eh, actually, I find that deleted scene makes it worse, because then it seems as if Sansa is really being persuaded by Littlefinger about her sister...even though she knows Littlefinger and knows he's a world class liar.

And you know what? The script actually addressed it, but Jaime had to "emote" the feelin of guilt instead. Because Jaime was supposed to feel guilty for sleeping with Brienne. Which, uh, good luck seeing that!
I can see him feeling guilty over sleeping with Brienne (although, yeah, good luck with that), but I can't see him feeling so guilty that he reverses all of his character development back to Season 1.

Edited by alliterator on Nov 1st 2019 at 6:29:16 AM

OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#11419: Nov 1st 2019 at 6:46:50 PM

I agree, but there's more and more things that they have them try to "emote" via faces and so they don't have the characters talk. Which makes it even more obvious where some problems lie. The fact the dialogue rapidly decreased only enforces just how bad of an idea this is.

Though granted, it keeps Tyrion from saying dumb stuff like Liberation Theology, so we're screwed no matter what.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Nov 1st 2019 at 6:50:57 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#11420: Nov 1st 2019 at 7:36:48 PM

Sure, we shouldn't have to be spoonfed all the important exposition stuff, but facial dialogue doesn't carry the day 100%. (Of course, there are some more films that have proven effective even when they have minimal dialogue in parts, like the end to Road to Perdition).

Okey Dokey!
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#11421: Nov 2nd 2019 at 9:12:30 AM

I’ll come out and say that Arya, Bran and Sansa’s characters are way more butchered than Jaime, Stannis and Dany.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#11422: Nov 2nd 2019 at 9:16:54 AM

Does it really matter?

They were all butchered, whoever was more butchered is an irrelavent pissing contest.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
InkDagger Since: Jul, 2014
#11423: Nov 2nd 2019 at 7:30:21 PM

Yeah, Misery Poker isn't a fun game to play. No one wins.

And, even if you go down that path, with SO MANY character arcs fucked over, they kind of bumped into each other like a shitty Domino train; X's character arc couldn't be good because Y's arc already got fucked up. Brinne getting screwed over because Jamie's arc went off the rails being an off hand example.

OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#11424: Nov 2nd 2019 at 7:32:09 PM

The fact she closes the book before the ink dries and thus smears everything she tried to do to make him seem great was terrific.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#11425: Nov 4th 2019 at 4:50:12 PM

Within the TV show, Jaime not being able to leave Cersei is fine. It’s just not what people wanted for the character. Jaime wasn’t butchered. He’s just an asshole that tried not to be an asshole be realized that he can’t stop being awful and tied to Cersei.


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