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Real Life section maintenance (New Crowner 04 October 2022)

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This is the thread to report tropes with problematic Real Life sections.

Common problems include:

Real Life sections on the wiki are kept as long as they don't become a problem. If you find an article with such problems, report it here. Please note that the purpose of this thread is to clean up and maintain real life sections, not raze them. Cutting should be treated as a last resort, so please only suggest cutting RL sections you think are completely unsalvageable.

If you think an article should be filed under No Real Life Examples, Please!, then this thread is the place to discuss it. However, please check Keep Real Life Examples first to see if it has already been brought up in the past. State the reasons and add it to the crowner.

To add a trope to a No Real Life Examples, Please! index, its crowner option must meet the following criteria:

  • 2:1 ratio needed for NRLEP
  • Must have been up for a minimum of a week
  • If the vote is exactly 2:1 or +/- 1 vote from that, give it a couple extra days to see if any more votes come in

Sex Tropes, Rape and Sexual Harassment Tropes, and Morality Tropes are blanket banned from having RL sections so tropes under those indexes don't need to be crownered.

Crowner entries that have already been called will have "(CLOSED)" appended to them and are then no longer open for discussion.

After you bring up a trope for discussion, please try to wait at least a day or so for feedback before you add the trope to the crowner.

Note: This thread is not for general discussion regarding policies for Real Life sections or crowners. Please take such conversations to this Wiki Talk thread.

Edited by Tabs on Sep 30th 2022 at 11:26:38 AM

WarJay77 Sending Shivers Down Your Spine from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Sending Shivers Down Your Spine
Sep 22nd 2022 at 5:15:35 PM

Right, Rally, there's a reason I asked if you think there's any way it could be salvaged. Ball's in your court here; you could convince us to make a cleanup attempt if you can point to specific things you think are valid or give us a case at why the problem won't come back. This is all I want at this point, lol. No need to go on for 5 pages when you can just say "this example, this example, and this example are all fine and shouldn't be axed".

People just want specific examples and solutions presented, otherwise cut really is the best way to resolve the problems the page has. That's what it boils down to.

Edited by WarJay77 on Sep 22nd 2022 at 8:16:45 AM

Current Project: Uncanny Valley
RallyBot2 Relationship Status: I wanna be your sledgehammer
Sep 22nd 2022 at 5:20:18 PM

[up][up]I'm aware of that, but the argument was about a trope on the crowner (at least tangentially) so leaving this thread entirely would just make it seem as if I abandoned it.

I'd like to get input on the other two tropes I mentioned, It Will Never Catch On and War Is Glorious.

Edit [nja]

Edited by RallyBot2 on Sep 22nd 2022 at 8:20:39 AM

WarJay77 Sending Shivers Down Your Spine from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Sending Shivers Down Your Spine
Sep 22nd 2022 at 5:23:48 PM

I don't really disagree with your other two points, personally. The main reason I zeroed in on Fair for Its Day was because I had something to say about it and wanted to make sure you were at least aware of the previous discussion. For the other two... yeah, makes sense to me though I would say that War Is Glorious also feels like something the narrative should claim and thus it might be too narrative-reliant to even have RL examples... but that's assuming my idea of the definition is right.

Current Project: Uncanny Valley
laserviking42 from End-World Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Sep 22nd 2022 at 5:23:59 PM

Input on what exactly? The start of the discussions are linked in the crowner if you want to see what was talked about. Aside from that, your vague "people won't help with a cleanup isn't an excuse" doesn't require input at all.

You still haven't made any concrete suggestions of what to do, just the smarmy backseat driving of how it's totally salvageable.

Let's hear you suggest what is and is not salvageable before we indulge this sniping anymore.

I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me
WarJay77 Sending Shivers Down Your Spine from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Sending Shivers Down Your Spine
Sep 22nd 2022 at 5:25:09 PM

Rally was asking for more input on the other points he made in his post is all because we all jumped onto Fair for Its Day and didn't address the other things. I think the Fair for Its Day discussion has sort of run its course since no concrete alternative solutions have been presented, so we might as well just move on.

Edited by WarJay77 on Sep 22nd 2022 at 8:26:40 AM

Current Project: Uncanny Valley
laserviking42 from End-World Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Sep 22nd 2022 at 5:30:04 PM

Which points? Aside from their belief that they shouldn't be cut, I haven't seen any points being made. Apparently some things are salvageable ... which items? What criteria are we using? Are they proposing a cleanup? Just example by example, or a separate thread like a short term project?

It's hard to respond to a simple "I don't feel they should be cut"

I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me
GastonRabbit You spooky bard! (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
You spooky bard! (he/him)
Sep 22nd 2022 at 5:32:58 PM

It was already explained why It Will Never Catch On's crowner entry is set up the way it is in the post linked to in its crowner entry and the posts before it. Go back and read the discussion instead of bringing up something that should have been discussed earlier this week.

Strange days have found us. Strange days have tracked us down.
WarJay77 Sending Shivers Down Your Spine from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Sending Shivers Down Your Spine
Sep 22nd 2022 at 5:33:54 PM

[up][up]This post, where they brought up War Is Glorious and It Will Never Catch On. I'm having trouble telling if that's what you're responding to or if you thought they were still talking about Fair for Its Day, so I'm just making sure we're all on the same page.

[up]Admittedly I missed the part where the It Will Never Catch On crowner was explained, so I was also confused when it was pointed out. But if it's already been discussed, fair enough. I might've skimmed that part or something.

Edited by WarJay77 on Sep 22nd 2022 at 8:35:35 AM

Current Project: Uncanny Valley
MacronNotes MOD she/her Relationship Status: -not set
she/her
Sep 22nd 2022 at 5:35:35 PM

General statement:

If you want to talk about the direction the thread is going in, please take that to the NRLEP thread here. We don't need to have this debate over and over especially when we have a policy discussion thread now.

Also, it's a little too late to argue against certain crowner items possibly getting cut when they are already being voted on. The time to do that would have been when the trope was still being actively discussed.

Edited by MacronNotes on Sep 22nd 2022 at 8:37:44 AM

Trope Report || Soft Split Cleanup || Wick Check Project
WarJay77 Sending Shivers Down Your Spine from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Sending Shivers Down Your Spine
Sep 22nd 2022 at 5:37:18 PM

I mean, to be fair the entire reason we started linking discussions was so people who disagreed could voice their concerns instead of feeling overwhelmed or confused about where the old discussion even took place. It was a solution we'd discussed at the other thread, and so Rally arguing against cutting things is actually what we were trying to encourage (for the sake of transparency if nothing else).

Not that the current debate is all that constructive, but we do want people to be able to speak up during the crowner session if they have counterpoints.

Edited by WarJay77 on Sep 22nd 2022 at 8:39:28 AM

Current Project: Uncanny Valley
MacronNotes she/her Relationship Status: -not set
she/her
Sep 22nd 2022 at 5:41:50 PM

I thought the links were there to show proof that a discussion was had in the first place. Regardless, I don't think we need to have in-depth on crowner options because I feel that's something that should have been done before the trope was crowned. Just stating an opinion but I don't think it needs to turn into a debate.

Edited by MacronNotes on Sep 22nd 2022 at 8:42:41 AM

Trope Report || Soft Split Cleanup || Wick Check Project
WarJay77 Sending Shivers Down Your Spine from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Sending Shivers Down Your Spine
Sep 22nd 2022 at 5:43:25 PM

I mean, you know how it goes; crowners attract way more people than the early discussion phases do, and we're trying to combat the unexplained downvote issue... and yeah. -Shrug-

I guess this could also be discussed at the other thread if needs to be hashed out, but this is the basic thought process we had.

Current Project: Uncanny Valley
MacronNotes she/her Relationship Status: -not set
she/her
Sep 22nd 2022 at 5:48:33 PM

Well, I guess I should have paid more attention after I came from just lurking the site for three weeks.

Also, yeah we should move this discussion to the criteria thread if anyone wants to talk about it in depth.

Trope Report || Soft Split Cleanup || Wick Check Project
WarJay77 Sending Shivers Down Your Spine from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Sending Shivers Down Your Spine
Sep 22nd 2022 at 5:49:34 PM

Lol, s'all good ~

Current Project: Uncanny Valley
RallyBot2 Relationship Status: I wanna be your sledgehammer
Sep 22nd 2022 at 5:51:39 PM
Thumped: This post has been thumped with the mod stick. This means knock it off.
laserviking42 from End-World Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Sep 22nd 2022 at 5:53:53 PM

The only one brought up that hasn't been crownered yet is War Is Glorious. So debate away on that one.

I will apologize if I seem a little testy over this, but opening with some sideline snark then proceeding to disagree with everything and then to disparage the reasons ("...saying "there isn't a problem" isn't saying that all examples are fine and dandy, it's saying that the real life section can be salvaged, after a cleanup if necessary. Saying that "people are too lazy to clean it up" is not a good argument to cut something...") without offering anything concrete has not made this seem like an actual debate.

If you want to downvote and explain why, by all means do so. If you want to make a point of how you don't participate but are happy to tell us how we're all wrong then ...

I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me
badtothebaritone Clever Title Relationship Status: Snooping as usual
Clever Title
Sep 22nd 2022 at 5:57:45 PM

War Is Glorious, to me, definitely sounds like it's inherently related to some kind of propaganda.

"There's no way I could mess this up." - Me before messing it up
WarJay77 Sending Shivers Down Your Spine from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Sending Shivers Down Your Spine
Sep 22nd 2022 at 5:58:10 PM

Admittedly, we've been bombarded lately with people coming in and giving us some really weird or bad takes. So it's easier to be a little on edge, since we're already dealing with it from both sides of the issue. Laser and I aren't even the sort of people who like to say "cut it" and move on, we're both just looking for better communication and constructive reasoning.

So let's talk about War Is Glorious for a minute. I'm still not sure it's even a trope that can exist without a narrative, since it seems to me like it should be about how war is romanticized in fiction.

Current Project: Uncanny Valley
badtothebaritone Clever Title Relationship Status: Snooping as usual
Clever Title
Sep 22nd 2022 at 6:00:16 PM

The only way I feel it can really exist in real life is, as I said above, propaganda. We don't trope propaganda, so we shouldn't be troping real life examples.

"There's no way I could mess this up." - Me before messing it up
WarJay77 Sending Shivers Down Your Spine from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Sending Shivers Down Your Spine
Sep 22nd 2022 at 6:01:29 PM

I mean... we do trope propaganda, but that's because it's fictional media and we treat it as such (take for example Squirrel and Hedgehog). Any examples from propaganda wouldn't go under the real-life section.

Current Project: Uncanny Valley
laserviking42 from End-World Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Sep 22nd 2022 at 6:04:08 PM

As far as War Is Glorious, what would constitute a real example as opposed to a general one? Saying that this is a common belief (as a few examples do) in certain political ideologies, seems rather general to me.

Saying Winston Churchill and Hitler believed in it? True, but also that example (Hitler is sub-bulleted under Churchill) is rather disingenious in arguing that Churchill only believed it in response to the Axis (Churchill was a lifelong hawk, he was all for war in the colonies of Africa and India, he was all for war in the leadup to WWI, he even argued passionately to continue WWII against the Soviets once Germany was down).

It's this kind of historical natter that really puts me off these sections (I was a history major, and the half truths and misuse seriously bug me).

I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me
WarJay77 Sending Shivers Down Your Spine from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Sending Shivers Down Your Spine
Sep 22nd 2022 at 6:06:07 PM

I don't think I'd even consider those valid examples anyway. "Someone thinks a thing" isn't the same as "a work portrays this thing as true", y'know?

(Now if the trope is being used for what random characters think it might need TRS, but I digress. There's a part on the bottom that claims it counts but these notes are usually added randomly and I don't trust it right now. And checking, yes, it was added unilaterally back in 2012)

Edited by WarJay77 on Sep 22nd 2022 at 9:07:28 AM

Current Project: Uncanny Valley
laserviking42 from End-World Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Sep 22nd 2022 at 6:11:20 PM

Now that you mention it, a character believing in war is more of a General Ripper or Blood Knight.

War Is Glorious is (or should be) more of a theme, like how 300 glorifies the super white Greek soldiers who fight off the suspiciously darker skinned Middle Easterners.

If it is theme, then this is a narrative trope, real life doesn't have a narrative, ergo, none of the RL section is valid.

Edited by laserviking42 on Sep 22nd 2022 at 9:11:34 AM

I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me
WarJay77 Sending Shivers Down Your Spine from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Sending Shivers Down Your Spine
Sep 22nd 2022 at 6:13:51 PM

Yup, that's where I'm at too.

Current Project: Uncanny Valley
badtothebaritone Clever Title Relationship Status: Snooping as usual
Clever Title
Sep 22nd 2022 at 6:16:00 PM

Pretty much. I gotta remember that something like a Wartime Cartoon counts as propaganda, too.

"There's no way I could mess this up." - Me before messing it up

Projects: Long Term/Perpetual: Real Life section maintenance 10/04/2022
4th Oct '22 1:46:57 AM

Crown Description:

Vote up to forbid real life examples; vote down to Keep Real Life Examples. To add a trope to a No Real Life Examples Please index, its crowner option must meet the following criteria:

  • 2:1 ratio needed for NRLEP
  • Must have been up for a minimum of a week
  • If the vote is exactly 2:1 or +/- 1 vote from that, give it a couple extra days to see if any more votes come in

After you bring up a trope for discussion, please try to wait at least a day or so for feedback before you add the trope to the crowner. Entries that have been called are marked with "(CLOSED)" and are no longer up for discussion.

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