Well, Barkey, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. And I can point and laugh at you because the way I would have things done is, in this case, the way they are going to be done.
But I would think the mere fact that Breivik himself considers execution justified is reason enough to rethink it. Yeah, yeah, I know, Hitler Ate Sugar...but you know what else Hitler did? Killed people. And he thought he was justified.
Don't you see, Euodiachloris? It saves money! And it makes Barkey go "Hoo-rah!" and maybe get a massive boner. We haven't really discussed it in any detail.
edited 22nd Apr '12 12:40:24 PM by Karalora
^
That's the beauty of freedom of speech.
@Karalora
Haha, fair enough, agree to disagree. And for your information, yes. At least if Martello's signature quote of me is any indication, though what I said in that quote was a joke.
No illusions about how Norway will do this. I just disagree with their decision.
I like simplicity, I guess I look at it as balancing the books a bit. Get rid of the problem and you don't have to look over your shoulder to make sure it isn't causing any trouble from its cell. The magnitude of what Breivik did pretty much makes me value the life of a rabbit I shoot in the woods more than him.
edited 22nd Apr '12 12:44:27 PM by Barkey
I was waiting for Godwin's Law to show its ugly head.
/Golf clap.
No one has asked you the question that must not be asked yet, have they? The one that would expose you for what you are.
What if it was your son, your daughter, your uncle, your aunt, your father, your mother, your cousin? Would you honestly answer yep, lock him up for twenty one years, that is long enough for me to get over the hole in my life that that evil murderous bastard caused?
Could you step away from your societal programming and say, lock the fucker up until his name is forgotten?
I know, emotive and all that crap.
Yes. Yes, I would. And, no qualms whatsoever.
After all, why should I stoop to their level?
Life is not cheap. Even that of those who wrong me or those I care about is too precious to throw away. Especially when it's not a case of a life-or-death situation.
Now... if I had a gun and a guy was coming at me with a knife? Different story...
edited 22nd Apr '12 12:47:15 PM by Euodiachloris
Now, that question is exactly why I do think well regulated revenge should be considered an aim of the justice system. But as I've said, killing Breivik (legally or extralegally) would be a sort of pyrrhic victory for him. Maybe, if I was affected, I would not consider that fact, that's true. But that doesn't make it any less right.
Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 FanficMaybe I'm a sadist who enjoys breaking evil people psychologically. Or maybe I'm too much of a Cognitive Science major and I think mind games are the answer to everything. But here's a happy thought, Barkey: imagine the look on this scum's face thirty years from now when he realizes that his massacre is barely a historical footnote and his crusade nothing but an illusion.
If you don't think that look on his face is worth the expense to the taxpayer, imagine it on the face of every extremist in Europe who sympathizes with him. I'll put it in jargon your profession knows well: this is a long-term psy op*. What happens to this Breivik isn't as important as demoralizing the next Breivik before he even thinks of getting his hands on a weapon.
*Is that the term for psychological warfare operation? I get too much of my military knowledge from fiction and this site.
edited 22nd Apr '12 12:48:04 PM by RadicalTaoist
Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.I think Godwin's Law is a moot point when you're talking about someone with actual Neo-Nazi leanings.
You ready for the big exposure? Are you ready?
You bet I'd want vengeance if someone I love had been a victim. I'd probably want to tear the bastard apart with my own two hands.
It doesn't mean that desire of mine would be right, or that society should cater to it. People in the throes of grief should not set the penal code. Laws should be made by people with clear heads.
edited 22nd Apr '12 12:51:23 PM by Karalora
Not pathos. Simple inquiry. And a very fair one, given the discussion so far.
"People in the throes of grief should set the penal code!" Um, no thanks, I'd rather laws be made by people with clear heads.
People in the throes of grief do set the penal code, or at the very least strongly influence it. Quite often in fact. Look up Megan's Law, or Sarah's Law, or the Brady Bill.
edited 22nd Apr '12 12:54:59 PM by TamH70
@Taoist
I see where you're coming from and all Taoist, but it kind of falls under the same reasons why I'm not into torture. I guess if there's a reason to expect it to yield good results, but I'm not really into unnecessary pain. I see killing people like him as pest control, not murder. Keeping him alive as a symbol that he's a piece of shit, I can get. But I personally don't derive satisfaction from suffering. I'd rather just shoot the guy and never think about him again.
^
Unfortunately it is very unanswerable. People respond to trauma and grief in very different ways, and none of us can really speculate on how we would feel. It is a good exercise to sit and consider though.
edited 22nd Apr '12 12:50:40 PM by Barkey
Could you step away from your societal programming and say, lock the fucker up until his name is forgotten?
While I would like to say 'yes' to that question, the truth is that I do not know. I am blessed with a healthy family that tends to stay from trouble (except for my father, who was a cop in the streets in the early days of his career), so I have not yet experienced what it would be like.
What I do know is that in such a time, I'll be incredibly emotional, and I think that people no longer in control of their own minds shouldn't be listened to when it comes to matters of justice.
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The inquiry is fair (if indeed mostly unanswerable), but building up theatralically with "the question that may not be asked" etc., that's pathos.
edited 22nd Apr '12 12:51:50 PM by Octo
Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 FanficTam, there's a bloody good reason why the families of the victims, and indeed the victims themselves, should play no part in the judicial process save giving evidence - their responses are emotional and emotion must have no place in objective justice. Yes, if a relative of mine was murdered I'd be pissed. But that doesn't give me the right to have the killer killed.
My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.It cracks me up how many people still think that's an invincible "gotcha" question.
"Ha ha! Either you admit that I am right, or you reveal that you are actually an unfeeling robot rather than a human! Either way, I win and you are destroyed!"
"NOOOOOOO! Morton's Fork! My one true weakness!"
edited 22nd Apr '12 12:58:50 PM by Karalora
They do, but that isn't my department. My particular slice of military culture still feels that "Bury a bunch of muslim enemies with a pig and let one go to tell the tale to his mates." is the best form of psychological warfare.
Psy ops people do what they do for a living, I'm pretty much a grunt with a badge.
Tam, the American justice system has exploited the grief of those who've lost close ones to murder in order to push legislation that makes prisons a very profitable business. We could compare Norway's system to China's (which has capital punishment) or Singapore's (which has corporeal punishment), but at the very least let's not pretend the U.S. system is the best or even a good model for comparison.
Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.

And, I don't live with the full knowledge that the next virus I encounter might very well be the last I do, Barkey? (Auto-immune problems here.)
I don't advocate pointless violence. But, that doesn't mean I wouldn't put my life on the line to protect a child or community from a distinct, active threat: or expect somebody else to.
However, taking somebody's life for the taking of life when they are under restraint? It's just not the same. However you treat him, you can't bring the people Breivik killed back. So, why kill him? It achieves nothing, if your society has decided not to support such acts.
edited 22nd Apr '12 12:38:38 PM by Euodiachloris