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The trial of Anders Breivik

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Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#201: Apr 22nd 2012 at 12:37:36 PM

And, I don't live with the full knowledge that the next virus I encounter might very well be the last I do, Barkey? (Auto-immune problems here.)

I don't advocate pointless violence. But, that doesn't mean I wouldn't put my life on the line to protect a child or community from a distinct, active threat: or expect somebody else to.

However, taking somebody's life for the taking of life when they are under restraint? It's just not the same. However you treat him, you can't bring the people Breivik killed back. So, why kill him? It achieves nothing, if your society has decided not to support such acts.

edited 22nd Apr '12 12:38:38 PM by Euodiachloris

Karalora Since: Jan, 2001
#202: Apr 22nd 2012 at 12:38:14 PM

Well, Barkey, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. And I can point and laugh at you because the way I would have things done is, in this case, the way they are going to be done.

But I would think the mere fact that Breivik himself considers execution justified is reason enough to rethink it. Yeah, yeah, I know, Hitler Ate Sugar...but you know what else Hitler did? Killed people. And he thought he was justified.

[up] Don't you see, Euodiachloris? It saves money! And it makes Barkey go "Hoo-rah!" and maybe get a massive boner. We haven't really discussed it in any detail.

edited 22nd Apr '12 12:40:24 PM by Karalora

whaleofyournightmare Decemberist from contemplation Since: Jul, 2011
Decemberist
#203: Apr 22nd 2012 at 12:39:57 PM

I just think that your idea of justice sucks, is all.

Funny that because most people here thinks your idea sucks

Dutch Lesbian
Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#204: Apr 22nd 2012 at 12:40:51 PM

^

That's the beauty of freedom of speech.

@Karalora

Haha, fair enough, agree to disagree. And for your information, yes. At least if Martello's signature quote of me is any indication, though what I said in that quote was a joke. tongue

No illusions about how Norway will do this. I just disagree with their decision.

I like simplicity, I guess I look at it as balancing the books a bit. Get rid of the problem and you don't have to look over your shoulder to make sure it isn't causing any trouble from its cell. The magnitude of what Breivik did pretty much makes me value the life of a rabbit I shoot in the woods more than him.

edited 22nd Apr '12 12:44:27 PM by Barkey

TamH70 Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
#205: Apr 22nd 2012 at 12:41:30 PM

I was waiting for Godwin's Law to show its ugly head.

/Golf clap.

No one has asked you the question that must not be asked yet, have they? The one that would expose you for what you are.

What if it was your son, your daughter, your uncle, your aunt, your father, your mother, your cousin? Would you honestly answer yep, lock him up for twenty one years, that is long enough for me to get over the hole in my life that that evil murderous bastard caused?

Could you step away from your societal programming and say, lock the fucker up until his name is forgotten?

I know, emotive and all that crap.

Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#206: Apr 22nd 2012 at 12:43:00 PM

Yes. Yes, I would. And, no qualms whatsoever.

After all, why should I stoop to their level? smile Life is not cheap. Even that of those who wrong me or those I care about is too precious to throw away. Especially when it's not a case of a life-or-death situation.

Now... if I had a gun and a guy was coming at me with a knife? Different story...

edited 22nd Apr '12 12:47:15 PM by Euodiachloris

Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#207: Apr 22nd 2012 at 12:44:58 PM

No one has asked you the question that must not be asked yet, have they? The one that would expose you for what you are.
Oh cut the pathos.

Now, that question is exactly why I do think well regulated revenge should be considered an aim of the justice system. But as I've said, killing Breivik (legally or extralegally) would be a sort of pyrrhic victory for him. Maybe, if I was affected, I would not consider that fact, that's true. But that doesn't make it any less right.

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#208: Apr 22nd 2012 at 12:46:20 PM

Maybe I'm a sadist who enjoys breaking evil people psychologically. Or maybe I'm too much of a Cognitive Science major and I think mind games are the answer to everything. But here's a happy thought, Barkey: imagine the look on this scum's face thirty years from now when he realizes that his massacre is barely a historical footnote and his crusade nothing but an illusion.

If you don't think that look on his face is worth the expense to the taxpayer, imagine it on the face of every extremist in Europe who sympathizes with him. I'll put it in jargon your profession knows well: this is a long-term psy op*. What happens to this Breivik isn't as important as demoralizing the next Breivik before he even thinks of getting his hands on a weapon.

*Is that the term for psychological warfare operation? I get too much of my military knowledge from fiction and this site.

edited 22nd Apr '12 12:48:04 PM by RadicalTaoist

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#209: Apr 22nd 2012 at 12:46:53 PM

^^

See, I can kind of get behind Octo's reason for not wanting him dead. It's strategic, strategy is a good reason not to kill him.

edited 22nd Apr '12 12:49:49 PM by Barkey

Karalora Since: Jan, 2001
#210: Apr 22nd 2012 at 12:47:11 PM

I think Godwin's Law is a moot point when you're talking about someone with actual Neo-Nazi leanings.

You ready for the big exposure? Are you ready?

You bet I'd want vengeance if someone I love had been a victim. I'd probably want to tear the bastard apart with my own two hands.

It doesn't mean that desire of mine would be right, or that society should cater to it. People in the throes of grief should not set the penal code. Laws should be made by people with clear heads.

edited 22nd Apr '12 12:51:23 PM by Karalora

Colonial1.1 Purveyor of Obscurity from The Marvelous River City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Purveyor of Obscurity
#211: Apr 22nd 2012 at 12:47:34 PM

205: Actually, that's kind of an unanswerable question at the moment. After all, unless he's had it happen to himself, even he might not know how he would act/react to such an incident.

edited 22nd Apr '12 12:47:59 PM by Colonial1.1

"He could not know it. For it was not all a joke."
TamH70 Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
#212: Apr 22nd 2012 at 12:49:34 PM

Not pathos. Simple inquiry. And a very fair one, given the discussion so far.

"People in the throes of grief should set the penal code!" Um, no thanks, I'd rather laws be made by people with clear heads.

People in the throes of grief do set the penal code, or at the very least strongly influence it. Quite often in fact. Look up Megan's Law, or Sarah's Law, or the Brady Bill.

edited 22nd Apr '12 12:54:59 PM by TamH70

Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#213: Apr 22nd 2012 at 12:49:53 PM

@Taoist

I see where you're coming from and all Taoist, but it kind of falls under the same reasons why I'm not into torture. I guess if there's a reason to expect it to yield good results, but I'm not really into unnecessary pain. I see killing people like him as pest control, not murder. Keeping him alive as a symbol that he's a piece of shit, I can get. But I personally don't derive satisfaction from suffering. I'd rather just shoot the guy and never think about him again.

^

Unfortunately it is very unanswerable. People respond to trauma and grief in very different ways, and none of us can really speculate on how we would feel. It is a good exercise to sit and consider though.

edited 22nd Apr '12 12:50:40 PM by Barkey

Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#214: Apr 22nd 2012 at 12:50:08 PM

What if it was your son, your daughter, your uncle, your aunt, your father, your mother, your cousin? Would you honestly answer yep, lock him up for twenty one years, that is long enough for me to get over the hole in my life that that evil murderous bastard caused?

Could you step away from your societal programming and say, lock the fucker up until his name is forgotten?

While I would like to say 'yes' to that question, the truth is that I do not know. I am blessed with a healthy family that tends to stay from trouble (except for my father, who was a cop in the streets in the early days of his career), so I have not yet experienced what it would be like.

What I do know is that in such a time, I'll be incredibly emotional, and I think that people no longer in control of their own minds shouldn't be listened to when it comes to matters of justice.

Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#215: Apr 22nd 2012 at 12:51:24 PM

[up][up][up]The inquiry is fair (if indeed mostly unanswerable), but building up theatralically with "the question that may not be asked" etc., that's pathos.

edited 22nd Apr '12 12:51:50 PM by Octo

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#216: Apr 22nd 2012 at 12:54:00 PM

Tam, there's a bloody good reason why the families of the victims, and indeed the victims themselves, should play no part in the judicial process save giving evidence - their responses are emotional and emotion must have no place in objective justice. Yes, if a relative of mine was murdered I'd be pissed. But that doesn't give me the right to have the killer killed.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#217: Apr 22nd 2012 at 12:56:28 PM

I see killing people like him as pest control, not murder.
I see demoralizing people like him as education, not torture. You don't like convincing enemies to lay down arms? Heck, doesn't the military still train people for psychological warfare operations these days?

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
TamH70 Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
#218: Apr 22nd 2012 at 12:57:08 PM

[up]Then tell that to the lawmakers of this country and America, where the wishes of grieving families have influenced legislation. Repeatedly.

Karalora Since: Jan, 2001
#219: Apr 22nd 2012 at 12:57:17 PM

It cracks me up how many people still think that's an invincible "gotcha" question.

"Ha ha! Either you admit that I am right, or you reveal that you are actually an unfeeling robot rather than a human! Either way, I win and you are destroyed!"

"NOOOOOOO! Morton's Fork! My one true weakness!"

edited 22nd Apr '12 12:58:50 PM by Karalora

Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#220: Apr 22nd 2012 at 12:59:55 PM

I see demoralizing people like him as education, not torture. You don't like convincing enemies to lay down arms? Heck, doesn't the military still train people for psychological warfare operations these days?

They do, but that isn't my department. My particular slice of military culture still feels that "Bury a bunch of muslim enemies with a pig and let one go to tell the tale to his mates." is the best form of psychological warfare.

Psy ops people do what they do for a living, I'm pretty much a grunt with a badge.

Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#221: Apr 22nd 2012 at 1:00:07 PM

Then tell that to the lawmakers of this country and America, where the wishes of grieving families have influenced legislation. Repeatedly.

They repeatedly made a mistake.

CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#222: Apr 22nd 2012 at 1:02:24 PM

[up] Correct. Where they do, they shouldn't.

Tam, as has been said repeatedly and you've ignored, justice is about what's right, not subjective emotion based on you being in a pissy mood.

edited 22nd Apr '12 1:02:33 PM by CaissasDeathAngel

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#223: Apr 22nd 2012 at 1:02:47 PM

Thread hop

21 years as max...wow. he killed almost 80 people and only 21 years? Bogus.

I believe in the death penalty for special cases. I would consider it for this man.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#224: Apr 22nd 2012 at 1:03:06 PM

Tam, the American justice system has exploited the grief of those who've lost close ones to murder in order to push legislation that makes prisons a very profitable business. We could compare Norway's system to China's (which has capital punishment) or Singapore's (which has corporeal punishment), but at the very least let's not pretend the U.S. system is the best or even a good model for comparison.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#225: Apr 22nd 2012 at 1:03:55 PM

^^^

The question he posed was still a good one, but so was the response that grieving family members perhaps shouldn't be the ones holding the executioners axe.

For me it isn't really an emotional issue. Just sort of makes sense to me.

edited 22nd Apr '12 1:05:11 PM by Barkey


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