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The trial of Anders Breivik

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Qeise Professional Smartass from sqrt(-inf)/0 Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Waiting for you *wink*
Professional Smartass
#301: Apr 24th 2012 at 5:27:09 AM

But if they did exist there could be a threat of another strike. Which wouldn't be good. Pretty sure they're imaginary/Breivik trying to make people paranoid.

Laws are made to be broken. You're next, thermodynamics.
TamH70 Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
#302: Apr 24th 2012 at 5:32:15 AM

[up]Either way, he comes up ahead. In the first case he still has his imaginary friends, in the second case, they scare the crap out of other people.

Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#303: Apr 24th 2012 at 7:13:29 AM

He is a very successful terrorist. I would not be surprised if he is used as a model for others. For this reason among others, This trial needs to be careful. Timothy Mc Veigh was a similar case. He was deemed sane and executed.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
Natasel Since: Nov, 2010
#304: Apr 24th 2012 at 7:35:49 AM

More like the Korean Cho of Virginia Tech. Lone gunman, highest kill count via firearms among recent spree killers.

Mc used a truck bomb.

edited 24th Apr '12 7:36:12 AM by Natasel

Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#305: Apr 24th 2012 at 8:24:27 AM

Mc Veigh had white supremacist and christian identity motivations. Different method, same motivations, justifications, and beliefs.

He planned his attack as revenge for the execution of the CSA assassin Gordon Kahl which was the same day as the bombing (April 19, 1995) which was the 10 year anniversary of the Waco tragedy (Mc Veigh also deplored) and the anniversary of the seige of the CSA compound and the 210th anniversary of the "shot heard around the world" that started the Revolutionary War.

Both of these men believe in conspiracy theories and racist ideals. Both were smart and calculated. Both hold no remorse and wished they could have killed more.

It's at least worth considering the similarities between the two as well as other terrorists who may not have been sentenced to death so that the best decision possible can be made.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
Natasel Since: Nov, 2010
#306: Apr 24th 2012 at 9:44:28 AM

I agree that study could lead to answers but there have been cases like this before and since it still keeps happening, it looks like study does not seem to be paying off very well.

Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#307: Apr 24th 2012 at 12:38:15 PM

Here is the thing, they aren't studying the right thing. Religious studies scholars have tried to get the chance to study how religious or idealogical based terrorism works. But trying to get the sanction or even material from the authorities is atrocious. What makes these two men the same? Different? Mc Veigh was given a closed execution quietly. Kahl was made a martyr with a public execution. How were details of the cases shared with the public before and after? How did this affect people as well as possible copycats?

People have been killing other people for as long as we have existed. But that doesn't mean we should just throw our hands in the air and let everyone just decend into chaos.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#308: Apr 24th 2012 at 1:30:03 PM

About Brevik being let out of prison. If it happens he is going to need to change his identity. He is the biggest monster in Norway in living memory; he won't be able to walk the streets under his old name. He will need witness protection and near constant surveillance; for his safety as much as society's. Thus I find the idea of him getting out and plotting shit again to be a tad far fetched.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#309: Apr 24th 2012 at 4:07:58 PM

Thread Hop: umm... Why is there any disscuion on this again? It not like there is any doubt he is guilty.

edited 24th Apr '12 4:08:25 PM by joeyjojo

hashtagsarestupid
Qeise Professional Smartass from sqrt(-inf)/0 Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Waiting for you *wink*
Professional Smartass
#310: Apr 24th 2012 at 4:40:03 PM

We had to figure out why giving him the death penalty wouldn't be an awesome idea.

Laws are made to be broken. You're next, thermodynamics.
Inhopelessguy Since: Apr, 2011
#311: Apr 24th 2012 at 4:46:38 PM

What are the point of the trials? What do we get out of them? The guilty verdict is assumed, anyway.

LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#312: Apr 24th 2012 at 4:50:56 PM

The point of them is that you can't get into the habit of killing or imprisoning people without a trial, no matter how heinous their crimes. There needs to be a process by which everybody is found either guilty or innocent.

Be not afraid...
joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#313: Apr 24th 2012 at 5:02:29 PM

Well obviously there still has to be a trial but it's not like he is going get off like that Anderson woman. We all know he did it. Let's just let that the court get on with it and get on with our lives

hashtagsarestupid
thatguythere47 Since: Jul, 2010
#314: Apr 24th 2012 at 5:08:47 PM

I find it interesting. Hearing his reasoning, his "logic" is just fascinating. To discover that there are people this dumb and this violent really kills your belief in humanity.

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?
joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#315: Apr 24th 2012 at 5:15:26 PM

Alassad

hashtagsarestupid
CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#316: Apr 24th 2012 at 6:14:00 PM

The explicit point is that his sanity needs to be determined (his fate is either jail or an institution, but which requires a full court trial to determine - psychiatric reports have found both ways so far) and he needs to be given the chance to express his attitude towards things. This is the only way the truth will ever be known about what happened, and that's essential for dealing with it properly. Obviously we know the basics, but only through getting inside his head (not with a high powered drill, before anyone suggests that) will we gain true understanding of it. The families of the victims, some at least, will want that, and presumbly other interested parties will have use of such information.

Many times in history, that a person has committed certain deeds has been beyond the doubting - Saddam Hussein's various atrocities for a prominent recent example - but they still need to be trialled. Justice doesn't disappear because a person's crimes are particularly serious; quite the opposite in fact - in such cases it just as or more important that the law be upheld by those enforcing it.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
Colonial1.1 Purveyor of Obscurity from The Marvelous River City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Purveyor of Obscurity
#317: Apr 24th 2012 at 6:23:16 PM

The thing is, though, people like him are a terrible exception to the rule when it comes to humanity. Just putting that out there.

"He could not know it. For it was not all a joke."
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#318: Apr 24th 2012 at 6:32:32 PM

... Your Mileage May Vary on that one. What he did was terrible, yes, but the Anders Breiviks of the world are just as much a part of the bellcurve of humanity as the Mother Theresas are.

Anyway, you can't start making exceptions and saying "well the people who are clearly guilty don't actually need trials because everyone knows they're guilty". That would be terrible.

edited 24th Apr '12 6:32:47 PM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...
Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#319: Apr 24th 2012 at 6:34:21 PM

... Your Mileage May Vary on that one. What he did was terrible, yes, but the Anders Breiviks of the world are just as much a part of the bellcurve of humanity as the Mother Theresas are.
So terrible on both sides of the bell curve?

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
Colonial1.1 Purveyor of Obscurity from The Marvelous River City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Purveyor of Obscurity
#320: Apr 24th 2012 at 6:34:38 PM

That was directed at they who spoke of faith in humanity, not whether or not he needed a trial.

Is his sentence likely to be lengthened?

"He could not know it. For it was not all a joke."
CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#321: Apr 24th 2012 at 6:48:04 PM

It will be lengthened so long as he is still a threat and a risk. So presumably yes, if his attitude and mental state then are as they are now, though a lot can happen in 21 years. I'm not impressed at those who seemingly take Norwegian professionals in this area as complete muppets who would believe any lies he told them, at any rate. They know the situation, will know it then, and will make, I'm sure, an accurate judgement. If he's judged insane though, I'd say it's incredibly unlikely he will have any chance at release.

edited 24th Apr '12 6:48:34 PM by CaissasDeathAngel

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#322: Apr 24th 2012 at 7:03:00 PM

@Octo: Regardless of your views on abortion (I'm pro-choice) and other controversial issues, it's ridiculous to condemn someone who gave her entire life in service to her faith and to those less fortunate, purely because she didn't share your set of opinions. To compare her to this mass murderer as two terrible people is downright offensive.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
DirectorCannon Since: Nov, 2011
#323: Apr 24th 2012 at 7:17:45 PM

So terrible at both sides of the bell curve?

That would be a bell parabola, wouldn't it?

RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#324: Apr 24th 2012 at 7:21:03 PM

[up][up]I think he might be referring to criticism of Mother Theresa that have nothing to do with her opinions.

edited 24th Apr '12 7:21:11 PM by RadicalTaoist

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#325: Apr 24th 2012 at 7:36:34 PM

OK, geez, I used the first name that popped into my head for 'famous saintly person'. Feel free to substitute any famous do-gooder of your choice. tongue Let's not have a Mother Theresa derail.

My point is, I think putting people like this in a little box and labelling it as "Not Human; feel free not to worry about it any more" is a bad idea.

edited 24th Apr '12 7:36:48 PM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...

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