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The Place for Purging Porn and Pedo-Pandering (AKA P5 flag evaluations)

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The sub-forum is used for discussions that adjudicate possible violations of The Content Policy. Threads here can be created by flagging a page through the sidebar "report" button and toggling "The page may violate the Content Policy".

This thread is for general discussion of pages.

Edited by SeptimusHeap on Sep 10th 2022 at 11:50:32 AM

FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#201: Apr 25th 2012 at 7:29:23 PM

Well, in the case where there was a clean up, there has to be some way to flag it again when it gets funky again.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
DarkConfidant Since: Aug, 2011
#202: Apr 25th 2012 at 7:31:14 PM

That's a fair point, but at the same time, there should be some way to prevent people from repeatedly flagging Sailor Moon and Brave New World.

Of course, anyone who does so deserves to be kicked off the wiki, but still.

encrypted12345 Since: Jun, 2010
#203: Apr 25th 2012 at 7:33:32 PM

[up][up] Maybe there could be a set amount of time it'll be impossible to flag again? A month, maybe?

Full Battle Mode
ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#204: Apr 25th 2012 at 7:51:55 PM

What about things that we flagged using the general "Needs Mod Attention" thing in the Tools menu? Do we need to re-flag those?

I'm assuming there'll be no need to re-flag the things listed on Pages Pending For Perusal By P 5.

edited 25th Apr '12 7:53:46 PM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
SgtHydra Since: Apr, 2009
#205: Apr 25th 2012 at 8:09:49 PM

Though I was politely redirected here, the post containing my opinion on this issue was sadly lost. Still unsure I'm in the correct forum, so my sincere apologizes if I am still not in the right place. Third time's the charm.

A condensed version:

1: This entire censorship campaign is pointless. Pedophilia was never an issue on this site. Wikipedia has more obscene content available for exposing kids to all sorts of things.

2: Censorship only leads to more censorship. At first it all seems reasonable. "OMG there's all these creepy entries with unsettling content, we have to stop this!" Which is fine. But then it all becomes a slippery slope. Like Spice And Wolf? That has a naked fifteen year old in it, you know. Naked for a full ten minutes, and on the cover of the book too. It'll probably have to be removed at some point. Like Haruhi Suzumiya? That has molestation in it you know. And underage drinking. Probably gonna be removed at some point. Once you start bowing to requests to remove certain types of content that were reasonably accepted before, you give the Moral Guardians control.

It'll happen. Trust me. Soon this site will be nothing more than kid's shows and 90's games. You did make an attempt to create some kind of end point (yes, I read this and this), but you gotta remember how all this started. The Google ads started complaining about alleged pornographic material being hosted on this site. You think you solved the problem, but you didn't. They still got plenty of things to complain about. It's all Trying to please them is pointless, as they'll always turn up something unless you prohibit every single possible thing they could ever complain about. Because they're specifically looking for something to complain about. And that means they'll find something. Either explain the situation is very much like Youtube, where you do the best you can to moderate, and if they don't listen find a new ad server. Not Tv Tropes' fault Google Adsense has Tv Tropes unfriendly policies.

Think I don't know what I'm talking about? See here and [1]. This is how it starts. And it'll get much much worse if we play their game. To them, Tv Tropes is a means through which their product goes to their customer. If given the opportunity, they will control this site as much as possible. It's a simple matter of standing firm.

See this? That's fine. That's all we have to do. If someone is making perverted example entries or descriptions, then edit that shit out and report the offender. That's all we have to do. I have never recoiled from a Tv Tropes page due to the sexual content of it's text or image. Maybe a link or two, but that's a moderation issue. Everyone here is acting like some child has been molested as a result of Tv Tropes having an article on Saya No Uta. OH MY GOD, IT'S A PORN GAME! So? It's also a horror game. Why is explicit content within the game itself, but not on the trope page, grounds for censorship?

We do not have to remove 40% of our content just because it obliquely relates to a taboo subject. Face it. Sex is a natural part of human nature. We don't have to flaunt it, but we definitely shouldn't pretend like it doesn't exist. Not even Wikipedia does that.

Can't you see what you're becoming?


I think the easiest solution is this: have tropers fill out their current age when they make an account. That's what every single site I know of does. Have a special spoiler tag that nobody under 18 would be able to see. In porn related articles, all examples would be hidden this way, with only a basic (and perhaps highly edited) description of the trope or work being available. I don't think this should make NSFW content any more acceptable than it was previously, rather I feel this would let Tv Tropes better respond to future claims of indecent material.

A simple statement of how diligently and professionally we handle these matters is all that should be needed. Google Adsense just wants to know they won't get in trouble for advertising here. All we need to do is assure them that they won't. Deleting the worst of the bunch does not to satisfy their concerns, as they'll just find more things to fret over.

Raidouthe21st Cool Dude from Whacking trick-or-treating punks Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Cool Dude
#206: Apr 25th 2012 at 8:12:35 PM

Sgt Hydra mentioned an idea of simply making tropers fill out their age so they won't be allowed to peruse pages they're too young to see.

Well...maybe we could consider putting up a big warning sign page redirect for certain pages. You know, like how those other sites have a "Are you 18+" sort of thing so that the casual viewers of TV Tropes will be able to know ahead of time if they really want to click on this link to this Saya game.

I know that's not one of those 100% sort of solutions, and it might not end up being considered anyways, but maybe it would help for the more "touchy" sorts of pages, even after the cleanup efforts are finished.

edited 25th Apr '12 8:13:04 PM by Raidouthe21st

We Are Our Avatars Forever (Now on Discord by invitation, PM)
SgtHydra Since: Apr, 2009
#207: Apr 25th 2012 at 8:14:41 PM

[up] And it'd work for articles that only have a few instances of explicit content.

Like Haruhi for example. That might rustle somebody's feathers, which is what we're all trying to avoid.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#208: Apr 25th 2012 at 8:15:43 PM

The goal isn't to avoid rustling people's feathers. It's to avoid rustling

A.) Google's feathers and

B.) Fast Eddie's feathers.

Well, that's a gross oversimplification, but the point is, the 5P council isn't just appealing to the demands of everyone decrying every last little work. They are an intelligent council that is making decisions based on consensus. Personally, I think they need some people who are porn-lovers to be able to make the distinction that it's porn specifically because they like it but that has its own pitfalls.

edited 25th Apr '12 8:17:45 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

Raidouthe21st Cool Dude from Whacking trick-or-treating punks Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Cool Dude
#209: Apr 25th 2012 at 8:25:35 PM

...Actually, I was advocating for a warning sign because I had a feeling that even with the hard work of the P5, there's still potential room for getting red alerted by Google for "inappropriate content", so that extra step could help ensure no such problems pop up ever again.

...But I won't push hard for it if everyone's confident it isn't necessary.

edited 25th Apr '12 8:28:01 PM by Raidouthe21st

We Are Our Avatars Forever (Now on Discord by invitation, PM)
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#210: Apr 25th 2012 at 8:34:45 PM

Mods, are you able to move individual posts from the other threads to this one? I've seen whole threads moved but I'm not sure about posts.

One person going off topic inevitably spawns at least half a page of replies, so just moving things into the right thread should help.

Swish Long Live the King Since: Jan, 2001
Long Live the King
#211: Apr 25th 2012 at 8:37:25 PM

I'm curious about something that is conflicting in the rules, and want some clarification as to which takes precedence...

Our guidelines here are explicit and minor. We don't mean that every work that implies or discusses teen sex is automatically paedoshit, but works which portray explicit sex involving a minor or someone who looks like a minor are categorically forbidden. Works portraying any sort of sex, implied or explicit, involving preteens are similarly likely to be removed. Works falling within the margins of this policy (for example, non-explicit sex between teens) are subject to review.
We are establishing a prima facie exemption for works that are considered acceptable for mainstream publication and distribution in a Western market — for the sake of resolving any disputes, this means the United States.

Now, my questions is, if a work(not porn) fits the top quote of being subject to review, but also fits the bottom one, of having been distributed in the Western Market, which takes precedence for asking for a review?

I assume erring on the side of flagging for review... But recent posts by Moderators in the recommendations thread seem to imply otherwise...

I don't ask because I want something cut... I ask because, if we're going to be "fair" about this process, we should still flag things that qualify for review(if they legitimately qualify), even if there is no chance in hell they're getting cut(because they fit under the "mainstream" exception). I'd like clarification before I do such a thing(make my insane request for review of a work that has no chance of getting cut), so I don't risk getting banned or something...

edited 25th Apr '12 8:38:29 PM by Swish

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#212: Apr 25th 2012 at 8:39:33 PM

I would think that specific beats general. Aka, the specific exemption for "It's considered okay in the US" beats whatever pseudopornographic elements.

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#213: Apr 25th 2012 at 8:43:25 PM

Okay, I finished going through the entire list, including the tropes. There are 43 works I need help on (44, if you count the whole radar subpage group, which needs a good long look and cleanup, but isn't porn), but I'm too tired for that at the moment. See everyone tomorrow.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#214: Apr 25th 2012 at 8:48:49 PM

We won't punish anyone for flagging stuff for review in good faith. The point of the exemption clause is to keep stuff like Romeo And Juliet from being flagged. It contains sex between minors, but not explicit sex, and it's part of Western literary canon that can be taught in schools. It is safe. For the same reason, Neon Genesis Evangelion is safe, and Lolita ought to be but we got a bit overzealous and that will be corrected.

In fact, I'll go so far as to say that the vast majority of published western media that is on this wiki is safe, except for the straight-up porn, mainly because people wouldn't bother to write an article for it otherwise — not to mention getting it published in the first place.

There is an odd difference when it comes to Japanese media — different cultural standards mean that works that would never in a million years be allowed for publication in the U.S. are distributed and enjoyed by lots of people over there. When Western audiences get their hands on those works, they take the fact that they are published anywhere as evidence that their subject matter ought to be okay.

Unfortunately, that isn't the case, and there are some articles on this wiki as a result that probably should not have been added in good taste. If we'd had this standard from the beginning, they wouldn't have been allowed. Since they were allowed, now that we're seriously looking at them, people get their feathers ruffled. Understandable, but that doesn't change the fact that we now need to apply a critical eye to them.

A similar situation applies to fan fiction, but in this case it's more one of Sturgeon's Law crossing over with There Is No Such Thing As Notability, meaning stuff that would never get by a modern media watchdog can be found in copious quantities on the Internet. Well, if you want to read it or talk about the horrible things that some fanfics contain, go to where you found them. Not here.

If your favorite work gets cut... well, sorry. It sucks. You are welcome to try to find another home for it if you can.

edited 25th Apr '12 9:08:05 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
animeg3282 Since: Jan, 2001
#215: Apr 25th 2012 at 9:01:37 PM

Although a lot of Japanese media is published here and is rated "PG" or lower. Oddly enough, my copy of Bunny Drop here is rated T...

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#216: Apr 25th 2012 at 9:06:05 PM

Then we probably aren't cutting it. See how simple that is? Since when did I say that all anime and manga was getting cut?

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#217: Apr 25th 2012 at 9:07:30 PM

Most Japanese media is completely safe and isn't even up for review. Most Japanese media that gets a stateside release is not rated mature. The stuff we're going after is much rarer than people think.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
animeg3282 Since: Jan, 2001
#218: Apr 25th 2012 at 9:07:48 PM

...I don't think I said you wanted to cut all anime and manga.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#219: Apr 25th 2012 at 9:09:02 PM

Then why would you bring up Bunny Drop? I just read the article and from what I can tell the most offensive thing it has is a Precocious Crush from a little girl to her "in loco parentis" father.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
animeg3282 Since: Jan, 2001
#220: Apr 25th 2012 at 9:11:40 PM

The truth is that Bunny Drop is on my table, and so when I needed an example, I just picked up the book, and flipped it.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#221: Apr 25th 2012 at 9:13:08 PM

That is exactly the kind of behavior we want to avoid here-the "Let's pick a random example without thinking if it fits" thing.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#222: Apr 25th 2012 at 9:13:50 PM

[up][up]I know you aren't trolling, but you frustrated me, because I've spent the past day or two laboriously explaining why published media that's already been reviewed by a rating board and found to be appropriate for minor audiences is not on our radar.

The point is: if someone else has already done the work of vetting something, why in the hell should we gainsay them?

edited 25th Apr '12 9:14:00 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#223: Apr 25th 2012 at 9:14:21 PM

Because we're better at it than they are?

I don't believe that necessarily, but I get the sense that there's an inherent distrust amongst some tropers for official ratings agencies.

Executive Meddling comes to mind.

edited 25th Apr '12 9:14:55 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

animeg3282 Since: Jan, 2001
#224: Apr 25th 2012 at 9:15:12 PM

Sorry about picking a random example :(

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#225: Apr 25th 2012 at 9:16:06 PM

[up][up]If anything, wouldn't it veer in the opposite direction: applying stricter ratings than may be necessary to satisfy some special interest? I mean, NAMBLA is not exactly high up there on the MPAA's VIP guest list.

edited 25th Apr '12 9:16:16 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

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