The Place for Purging Porn and Pedo-Pandering (AKA P5 flag evaluations)

Yeah. You can feel free to bring up arguments for restoring it if you don't think it was pandering and should be reviewed.

Question, though. Have the current admins indicated an openness to reopening fiat decisions from Fast Eddie? (Caligula is the only case where Eddie invoked his fiat against express consensus; Kodomo no Jikan was also a fiat decision but nobody's overturning that one.)

I did ask in Moderator Skype. I'll go to bed now so I'll let someone else do the reply.

edited 16th Jan '15 4:15:40 PM by SeptimusHeap

The new admins stance is pretty much : "We aren't going to change things just because Eddie did them by fiat, but we also aren't going to keep things just because he did them by fiat." In other words, yes, they're open to the possibility, but you'll need to present good convincing reasons beyond "this was an admin fiat."

^ and ^^ Ok, I was misremembering. I was under the impression that Eddie stepped in pretty assertively on Crosstime Engineer.

edited 16th Jan '15 5:28:36 PM by Madrugada

Sounds like a good stance. A good argument for a change shouldn't be thrown away just because a previous decision has been made. There's always the possibility of new information, or changes in how things work out. Likewise, change for the sake of change is generally not a good idea.

Eddie does have strong opinions and stated as much, but didn't always step in to make the decisions, even when he disagreed.

Come to think of it, the Caligula veto was pretty contested at the time, even among the P5 wasn't it? I don't think we ever had a real judgment on it before that happened.

Maddy: We had a discussion and an appeal about The Cross-Time Engineer, but if you have any new information to bring to the table, that might be grounds for a review.

edited 16th Jan '15 11:04:45 PM by Pyrite

You know, it would help streamline the "reconsider admin fiat-enforced decisions" process if fiat-based decisions left some clear "marker" on them for the staff to see.

Ah

I do not have anything new beyond what Fuzzy Boots presented, and as I originally said, I haven't re-read it myself recently. He did reread it and retracted his request. On that basis, I won't press mine.

edited 17th Jan '15 3:59:35 AM by Madrugada

In this case (Caligula) you'll notice it's not listed on the CVR.

For what it's worth, in the MoS discussion nobody was opposed to letting the 5P vote on its restoration in some form if they are so inclined. Google might complain but I don't think that is predictable enough to make any decision on the basis of such.

Well, if it means anything, I'm still open to giving a more proper decision on what to do with Caligula.

Well comparing both the cut list and the decisions. Most of the early cut ones like Eiken were not talked about and several cut ones aren't on the list altogether.

edited 17th Jan '15 4:36:41 AM by Memers

Yes they were - Eiken had its own thread.

I missed it on the list then, one is alphabetical and the other seemingly is chronological so sue me

They should both be alphabetical, I think. That said, I haven't updated it in a long, long time.

If someone wants to appeal a work, period, they can appeal it and give their reasons. All that the new management means is that Eddie decisions are now on the table, not that prior P5 calls are off it.

For the record, with Eiken, someone could probably make a case for restoring the page (cleaned and locked, of course). Community consensus and P5 membership have changed since the decision was called.

I would be willing to revisit Caligula as well.

It's aired in edited-form on mainstream TV and Wal-Mart(who has a strict no-porn policy AFIAK) even carries an R-rated cut of it so I think it's worth considering a restore on.

My sincere apologies for my addition to the queue.

A brief outline: the fic contains pseudo-bestiality between sapient ponies and feral humans who possess intelligence between an animal and that of a small child (the protagonist being the sole exception). It is mentioned repeatedly as a theme, with at least one scene where the protagonist walks in on such an encounter in progress (around the middle-end of Chapter 16). It is not portrayed negatively by the story, and the author has been made well aware of the implications; even with an anthropocentric view they are fairly obvious.

In short, it's a story that not only condones but features scenes of bestiality.

..bestiality isn't against site policy, excessive PWP is

That would seem to make absolutely no sense given that paedophilia is (rightly) not tolerated, and we're talking about someone or thing with less capacity for reason than a child. While bestiality is also not illegal within every Western state, it is within most, and it's not explicitly condoned even where it is legal.

I would also submit that bestiality is far from the family friendly vibe TVT ostensibly aims for, and it's certainly against almost all advertiser's policies. Its omission (if accurate) would seem like an oversight, though that's a discussion for elsewhere.

We're also not talking about the occasional reference for comedic or dramatic purposes, there is a full on depiction of it within the story (albeit a fairly small one), and it is presented in story with no negativity.

Edit: and if the species really is important, we're talking about humans who under Western ethical systems have no capacity for consent, thus making it a story that has humans being raped for titillation.

edited 18th Jan '15 7:36:15 PM by AbstractIndigo

What now?

Wouldn't MLP smut be Xenophillia since they have basically human mental facilities?

edited 18th Jan '15 7:36:02 PM by shoboni

The premise of Xenophilia is that all participants have human-level intelligence. This is not the case here.

Not so sure about that.

That said, child-like intelligence does sound like an issue. It may be best for the P5 to read the fic in question.

The whole bestiality thing does not apply to MLP regardless. They are intelligent and sapient. Period. Not that bestiality alone was a direct problem in itself. If it's pretty much porn, the type of porn is not that relevant as it'll be gone regardless. If it isn't porn, but is pedophilia-pandering, it's a goner too.

It's not just the relevant sex issue that's important, it's how it's depicted. Lolita was allowed to stay because it depicts pedophilia in a highly negative light. Same for several works who were allowed a clean and keep, often with a lock.

Another issue is the mental and physical age/appearance of the parties involved. If the feral humans don't have the ability to meaningfully consent, then that's an issue.

This particular fic sounds like one of those borderline works that mean the P5 team's going to have a large alcohol bill this month.

@Abstract Indigo: You're analyzing waaaay too deeply into this.

Pedo-pandering material is banned here because it's pedo-pandering material. There's no underlying philosophical reasoning (that I'm aware of) why pedophilia hits this and bestiality doesn't; it's not wanted by the site management and that particular subject is not open to debate. All other paraphilia-related material (including bestiality) is judged on the "porn" standard, which is much more flexible.

edited 18th Jan '15 8:13:41 PM by Ramidel