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DrKilljoy Since: Jan, 2001
Martello Hammer of the Pervs from Black River, NY Since: Jan, 2001
Hammer of the Pervs
#502: Apr 23rd 2012 at 3:11:14 PM

Please add a reason for Dreamwalk Journal, and add it to the sandbox page. Pokegirls is already listed so no issue there.

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
AGroupie sick of it all from City of Angelic Devils Since: Oct, 2009
sick of it all
#503: Apr 23rd 2012 at 5:06:29 PM

Since no one answered this before, I'll repost it because I am seriously curious:

What do we do about unconnected works by the same people? As in, a band's Performance Videos or songs, a series of monologues, a book of short stories, e.g. other things that may be by the same people, where most are not P5 cases but there's some borderline material on occasion.)

I'm thinking of a few bands' lyrics and videos (not Anal Cunt or similar porngrind, but something like, say, Dir En Grey or GWAR where the output is split fairly evenly between NSFW sexual implications and stuff that is gorn or other nonsexual Nausea Fuel but not porn, or a band that mostly does stuff G to R but with That One Video that is questionable and high R at best, or Hair Metal or once-Hair Metal bands that would have a ton of (often cheesy) sexual stuff but also had fairly worksafe songs and performances) or The Vagina Monologues, and a few other things.

What's the proper thing to do in such a case?

  • Remove the page entirely, never mind the great majority of material (in the band discography, the short story collection, whatever) are okay according to the rules.

  • Cut and lock the page?

  • Curate and, were anyone ever to actually link or mention the "bad" part, remove the entry or the link and warn whoever posted them not to do so again?

  • Something else?

edited 23rd Apr '12 5:07:01 PM by AGroupie

?
LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#504: Apr 23rd 2012 at 5:12:18 PM

I would assume, in cases like that, we'd curate it the same way we curate The Lonely Island page - make no bones about the more graphic things in the group's catalog, but try to keep things as light and unexplicit as possible, while keeping the page rated mature and locked. I'm pretty sure TLI doesn't have any links on it to the more ridiculously sexual songs, either, so that could be a starting point. If there are pages that definitely need some sort of cleaning in the Visual Kei department, you could probably propose them here.

ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant Since: Jan, 2001
Ravenous Sophovore
#505: Apr 23rd 2012 at 5:18:49 PM

I would say that if you're unsure, you can bring it up here and 5P can decide precedent. That is their job, after all (no pressure, guys!).

But there's no reason that we have to rush to get everything on the list right this second. It would be good to give them some time to work through the backlog.

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
AGroupie sick of it all from City of Angelic Devils Since: Oct, 2009
sick of it all
#506: Apr 23rd 2012 at 5:26:30 PM

[up] Good, if that's what we should do, because that's what I've been doing. I already cleaned several of the Visual Kei band pages as well as Visual Kei itself, removing possibly troublesome content or fetishy tropes (some of which I'd applied myself in the past *blush*) and hopefully that's the policy that will last, especially because as far as I'm aware, none of the Visual Kei bands on here have anything like pedo content at all - the P5 issue with them is adult porny stuff.

edited 23rd Apr '12 5:27:27 PM by AGroupie

?
ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant Since: Jan, 2001
Ravenous Sophovore
#507: Apr 23rd 2012 at 5:28:27 PM

If the problem is with fetishy tropes and gushing on the page, then that's more a job for the No Lewdness clean-up rather than this.

edited 23rd Apr '12 5:28:44 PM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#508: Apr 23rd 2012 at 5:44:01 PM

I object to the idea that 5P needs to abide by precedent. We should be clear that things are decided on a case-by-case basis, so that no one on either side can say "But this work was cut/kept and it's similar to that work, so they have to cut/keep it, too".

ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant Since: Jan, 2001
Ravenous Sophovore
#509: Apr 23rd 2012 at 5:50:45 PM

I didn't say that they absolutely have to abide by precedent. What gave you that idea?

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
HersheleOstropoler You gotta get yourself some marble columns from BK.NY.US Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Less than three
You gotta get yourself some marble columns
#510: Apr 23rd 2012 at 5:52:41 PM

@Bad Wolf 21: Why do you think similar works should be treated differently?

I'm American, though, so precedent seems normal to me.

edited 23rd Apr '12 5:53:21 PM by HersheleOstropoler

The child is father to the man —Oedipus
BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#511: Apr 23rd 2012 at 6:05:21 PM

[up][up] Using the word precedent in the first place did.

[up] I don't, necessarily. Often, similar works will have similar decisions handed down, and that's fine. However, if you're not clear that everything is decided on its own merits, you'll have people starting a shitstorm because the work they like/hate is being treated differently from similar works.

encrypted12345 Since: Jun, 2010
#512: Apr 23rd 2012 at 6:07:11 PM

However, if you're not clear that everything is decided on its own merits, you'll have people starting a shitstorm because the work they like/hate is being treated differently from similar works.

Can you please elaborate? I don't quite get your logic.

Full Battle Mode
ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant Since: Jan, 2001
Ravenous Sophovore
#513: Apr 23rd 2012 at 6:14:11 PM

[up][up]There is nothing inherent in the word precedent that says "we must follow it slavishly" - not even the US legal system does this. It is a decision we can use as a starting point when deciding a similar situation - which is exactly what is needed here. We have no guidelines for music, so decisions made for that media will set a precedent for what we decide on them in the future.

As has been stated over and over everything will be seen on a case by case basis. We are relying on human judgement, not hard and fast rules.

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#514: Apr 23rd 2012 at 6:16:13 PM

Self thump for redundancy and ninja attack.

edited 23rd Apr '12 6:16:59 PM by Elle

nman Since: Mar, 2010
#515: Apr 23rd 2012 at 7:01:08 PM

Hey, has anyone brought up Elegant Gothic Lolita? It's not a work, it's a trope, but I don't know where else to put it. I don't see it on that sandbox page, and it has the word "Lolita" in the title.

Martello Hammer of the Pervs from Black River, NY Since: Jan, 2001
Hammer of the Pervs
#516: Apr 23rd 2012 at 7:04:02 PM

Take a look at the page description. It has nothing to do with pedophilia, it just has an unfortunate name that's pre-existing.

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#517: Apr 23rd 2012 at 7:04:04 PM

[up][up] Another case of Did Not Do The Research. If you had bothered with reading the description properly, you would've noticed this link, which explains why "lolita" is used in the name despite there being no actual connection with pedophilia, child sexualization or Lolita. Long story short: The Japanese appropiated the word and gave it a meaning that is not related to the ones given in Western dictionaries.

edited 23rd Apr '12 7:05:02 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Catalogue A pocketful of saudade. from where the good times are Since: Sep, 2009
A pocketful of saudade.
#518: Apr 23rd 2012 at 7:10:30 PM

What Marq and Martello said.

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
nman Since: Mar, 2010
#519: Apr 23rd 2012 at 7:15:20 PM

I didn't want to bring up an argument about it. I just meant that it looks like there's potential. I could also say "The picture for that page looks like cartoon ten-year-olds being used for some sort of goth fetish"

ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant Since: Jan, 2001
Ravenous Sophovore
#520: Apr 23rd 2012 at 7:16:18 PM

Potential for fetish isn't the sort of thing we're looking to axe. That'd be impossible to contain - everything is a potential fetish.

EDIT: Oops, forgot to post here. Put Persona 3 up for review. Not because I think it needs axed, but because it's one of those grey areas that will probably be brought up sooner or later. The original had a romance option with implied sex between a 16 and 15-year-old, and the remake has a romance option (with no sex or fanservice) between a 16 year old and elementary school student.

It has an M rating, but I think that's because of the suicide imagery rather than the sexual overtones.

edited 23rd Apr '12 7:24:48 PM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#521: Apr 23rd 2012 at 7:22:19 PM

[up] Yeah, that's why Turn On Tropes / Fetish Fuel Tropes was axed; it was essentially proven that pretty much anything is Fetish Fuel for someone.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#522: Apr 23rd 2012 at 7:23:36 PM

Back when all the other non-sexual X Lolita were getting renamed (i.e. to Little Miss Badass), Elegant Gothic Lolita was explicitly given a pass and I don't imagine it will be different now.

Catalogue A pocketful of saudade. from where the good times are Since: Sep, 2009
A pocketful of saudade.
#523: Apr 23rd 2012 at 7:26:06 PM

I think it's a real-life, reasonably-mainstream term for a real-life, reasonably-mainstream fashion wave. So, yes.

edited 23rd Apr '12 7:26:26 PM by Catalogue

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#524: Apr 23rd 2012 at 8:03:05 PM

Elegant Gothic Lolita gets a pass because it's a pre-existing term.

edited 23rd Apr '12 8:03:24 PM by JapaneseTeeth

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Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#525: Apr 23rd 2012 at 10:43:41 PM

Okay, looking at some of the recomendations this is just ridicolous. Persona3 made the list for fade-to-black scenes between teenagers? Sailor Moon and Tenchi Muyo? Are some Tropers at the point where they're just throwing anything that even remotely has some hint of sex relating to anyone under the age of consent on there.

With that many entries on the recommendations list, how is the panel supposed to devote a fair amount of time to each exactly? Also how is it going to be ordered by; are they going to go alphabetically, those that don't have defences, those that do, the obvious ones?

EDIT: Okay took a look, and the person who posted Persona3 also posted it's defence. So is it okay to post works that we personally believe aren't violations, but there's a grey area that might not be understoond if someone else disagrees?

edited 23rd Apr '12 10:46:49 PM by Shaoken


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