Ambiguous Name: Plot With Porn

The No Such Thing As Notability page says that we cannot have porn. I know that it means Porn Without Plot and Excuse Plot with the excuse of porn are not allowed based on context and the situation we are in. However, other tropers may not and assume that the site also absolutely prohibits the works that qualify for this trope when in reality, works of such nature will be reviewed on a case by case basis. Before we have yet another semantics free-for-all on the Content Policy thread, we should rename this into something like Plot with Explicit Sex (probably something more catchy), so the definition of porn as it relates to this website is more clear.

EDIT: Nevermind. Considering that there's this quote on the No Such Thing As Notability

edited 18th Apr '12 3:32:24 PM by encrypted12345

Probably better to just delete the entire page in accordance with policy.

We are not deleting the entire page. It is not in violation of any policy.

EDIT: mod-ninja'd

I agree, though, that this should be renamed. I think that terms like Scenery Porn and Food Porn are also going to get renames.

What it could change to...

Plot With Sex? May Contain Sex?

edited 18th Apr '12 11:56:44 AM by ArcadesSabboth

"There's sex in it but that's not its whole point."

This doesn't seem like an actual trope.

I've seen this mentioned in some of the Wiki Talk threads. Are we really renaming Food Porn and Scenery Porn? I thought it was accepted that we're not denying the existence of pornography.

Renaming Food Porn and Scenery Porn seems a bit extreme. There has been no official announcement on those, so right now that's just a rumor.

This seems like a genre to me: a work that is a pornography, but has a strong enough plot that it can stand on its own without it.

Renaming Food Porn sounds silly. If there's anyone who thinks it refers to actual porn, then...what can I say.

No, we don't need to rename Food Porn or Scenery Porn or discuss it here - they use "porn" as a metaphor.

Porn with Plot is to me porn that has significant plot to it. But why rename?

I think May Contain Sex is kinda snappy...

But isn't this a pre-existing term? I know Porn Without Plot is, as a variant of Plot? What Plot?, but I wasn't sure about this one.

I'm pretty sure Porn with Plot is preexisting. Not so sure about Plot with Porn. It might be our own invention.

Like I said in the op, the No Such Thing As Notability page prohibited porn, and it's seems like Plot with Porn is out by the policy because it does in fact contain porn. I just wanted to make it more clear what that page meant by porn and keep the definition consistent throughout the wiki especially in that kind of borderline case.

edited 18th Apr '12 12:36:17 PM by encrypted12345

As far as I'm aware, only pure porn and porn with an excuse plot is out. Porn with Plot is decided case by case, Plot with Porn is usually fine.

Why the difference between Porn with Plot or Plot with Porn?

And it's Porn Without Plot that we want to get rid of.

Okay, the nothing but porn part in the policy clears it up a lot.

Ratio of plot to porn

edited 18th Apr '12 12:43:25 PM by encrypted12345

I apologize for repeating an unsubstantiated rumor. I thought I had read that it was going to happen.

How concerned should we be that works labeled Plot with Porn will be cutlisted or flagged mistakenly by folks who misunderstand the new policy? If it isn't a concern at all, renaming this may not truly be necessary.

edited 18th Apr '12 2:55:49 PM by ArcadesSabboth

So, ah, what Kaiser Mazoku said. There's not much of an actual trope here. It's like "explicit sex scenes exist, but there's plot". Not really a pattern or anything.

Considering that there's this quote on the No Such Thing As Notability now

I think we should swap this with the redirect Porn with Plot, if it's really necessary.

Wait, why is that a redirect in the first place? Elsewhere people are treating Plot with Porn and Porn with Plot as separate things.

My understanding is that Porn with Plot is mostly porn, with some basic, simple storyline thrown in to mix it up once in a while; but Plot with Porn is mostly a story, with porn scenes thrown in to spice it up. You can take the sex out of Plot with Porn and still have plot; but take the sex out of Porn with Plot and the plot kinda doesn't work anymore.

Lumping them together is just encouraging people to think they're the same, and want both to be axed.

So Plot with Porn is basically Gratuitous Sex Scene, isn't it?

Maybe it should be split. It sounds like that from your definition, Plot with Porn is Plot with Excuse Porn while Porn With Plot is Plot where the porn is necessary to make the plot work.

edited 18th Apr '12 4:08:21 PM by encrypted12345

Well that's how people were using the terms on the Content Policy Change thread.

I think in a lot of the stuff that's listed on the Plot with Porn page, the sex is neither the whole of the story nor gratuitous. The analogy I like to make is that a well-done Plot with Porn work uses arousal as a tool, just like a well-done horror story uses fear as a tool. (In this sense, Porn Without Plot is most directly analogous to generic splatter horror.)

Of course, I'm not sure how well this fits with the dictionary definition of porn. (However, it does match how the term "porn" is used on several websites, most obviously Literotica.)

Edit: Yes, this is coming from someone who's previously called horror intellectually bankrupt. I can at least recognize the craft involved.

edited 18th Apr '12 4:29:34 PM by feotakahari

I wouldn't call Plot with Porn necessarily gratuitous. Usually, its just a story that doesn't fade to black or pan away when the characters start going at it. That's why I like May Contain Sex.