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Meeble likes the cheeses. from the ruins of Granseal Since: Aug, 2009
likes the cheeses.
#476: Apr 14th 2012 at 9:07:29 PM

I apologize if I missed it, but has there been any word on how visible the council's process is going to be?

I bring it up because in the past we've had issues with things like cut list decisions seeming completely arbitrary due to things being decided yea or nay without any insight from the cut masters.

edited 14th Apr '12 9:08:37 PM by Meeble

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Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#477: Apr 14th 2012 at 9:09:30 PM

They're working on deciding how it'll be done.

DarkConfidant Since: Aug, 2011
#478: Apr 14th 2012 at 9:10:50 PM

[up][up] Second paragraph has Best Of assuring that there will be a place for the community to have input and an implicit guarantee of some level of transparency to be decided later.

HersheleOstropoler You gotta get yourself some marble columns from BK.NY.US Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Less than three
You gotta get yourself some marble columns
#479: Apr 14th 2012 at 9:15:22 PM

"Some level of transparency"? There is no possible way for that to be false.

tongue

The child is father to the man —Oedipus
TalkingSoup Since: Jan, 2010
#480: Apr 14th 2012 at 9:16:02 PM

Are you guys serious here?

I can understand cutting clear-cut child pornography, but Lolita? One of the most bestselling and most important pieces of literature of the last century? The subject of the book Reading Lolita in Tehran, which was itself a bestseller, and provided very important insight into the culture of Iran?

Yes, I am yet another troper calling this censorship—because guess what, *it is*. The message you are sending here is "don't talk about pedophilia at all because it's gross." What a great message to send to people who have actually been victims of it and who use fiction as an outlet. Will you cut the Lovely Bones as well—something the author wrote to deal with her own trauma? Will you cut Hard Candy because it dares to even mention pedophilia.

Yes, pedophilia is a terrible thing, and child pornography is disgusting—I'm pretty sure most people would agree with that. But censoring it like this is just the same, problematic strategy of "sweep it under the rug" which has led to decades and decades of victims not only going without treatment but perpetuating the vicious cycle.

This is censorship, plain and simple. I really thought this site was better than this.

abstractematics Since: May, 2011
#481: Apr 14th 2012 at 9:18:17 PM

I can understand that you would be upset, but please give the matter some time. Lolita cutting has been talked for a few days and it's up to the committee to see if it can be returned.

Now using Trivialis handle.
TalkingSoup Since: Jan, 2010
#482: Apr 14th 2012 at 9:19:52 PM

Lolita shouldn't have been cut in the first place. The discussion of it's nature as "porn" is practically archaic at this point.

abstractematics Since: May, 2011
#483: Apr 14th 2012 at 9:21:00 PM

I think it's because of the fact that the site wants to be clean, in a way. The initial cuts were done as a safety net.

Now I still think that if this is indeed the direction the wiki's going, it's important enough to warrant its place as a core guideline.

Now using Trivialis handle.
JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#484: Apr 14th 2012 at 9:22:38 PM

You guys do realize that when the council gets finalized, the first order of business is probably going to be to put Lolita back, right? Pretty much everyone seems to be against that cut, and I'm pretty sure Eddie only cut it in the first place because he misunderstood the level of explicitness and thought it was worse than it was.

Once this thing gets set up, it's probably going to start with the series' that have the most people clamoring for reinstatement. Lolita and Fate Stay Night are probably at the top of the list. I mean, don't take this as a guarantee, but if the administration wants to demonstrate that the system works, fixing the most glaring cuts right off the bat is the logical thing to do.

edited 14th Apr '12 9:23:34 PM by JapaneseTeeth

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deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#485: Apr 14th 2012 at 9:24:44 PM

An idea to promote transparency, the council discusses and decides things in a thread that only they can post in, but everyone can see, as well as a second one in which others can post, to provide input, and more information regarding whatever work the council is looking at.

Vyctorian ◥▶◀◤ from Domhain Sceal Since: Mar, 2011
◥▶◀◤
#486: Apr 14th 2012 at 9:25:48 PM

Yeah FSN, defiantly needs to be not cut. While there is hentai in it, that was the first version most people don't know of it because of that version most people know of it because of the wildly popular not pornographic all anime, and Ova's.

[up] This.

edited 14th Apr '12 9:26:21 PM by Vyctorian

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TheManInBlack Since: Oct, 2009
#487: Apr 14th 2012 at 9:37:39 PM

Yeah it and VN's with anime spin offs (or non pornographic V Ns) that were cut need back in. I understand why FE did it, because he was in panic mode, but I suspect they'll be added back in.

The things that will have LONG discussions about whether or not to be cut are going to be slightly more obscure but literary things, like Fanny Hill: Memoirs of a Women of Leisure.

RhymeBeat True colors from Eastern Standard Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
True colors
#488: Apr 14th 2012 at 9:51:32 PM

All VNS!? (checks page) Thank god. Ace Attorney is spared for now.

But seriously... Was anyone really going to cut the pages of an entire medium?

The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.
encrypted12345 Since: Jun, 2010
#489: Apr 14th 2012 at 9:53:21 PM

[up] No, I know a couple have been cutlisted. Fate Stay Night was accidental and Virgin Roster was ... yeah.

As a whole, they are known for being a shady medium, so that's why Man in Black noted them.

edited 14th Apr '12 9:55:06 PM by encrypted12345

Full Battle Mode
shimaspawn MOD from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#490: Apr 14th 2012 at 9:54:06 PM

No, we are not cutlisting any entire mediums unless you count pure Porn as a medium. Please calm down. Hyperbole and over reactions don't help anyone.

edited 14th Apr '12 9:54:27 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
TheManInBlack Since: Oct, 2009
#491: Apr 14th 2012 at 9:56:01 PM

I'm not overreacting it's just Eddie's first purge was an understandable first overreaction while he was trying out how react to this, and that's how it appeared.

BlackSword Since: Nov, 2009
#492: Apr 14th 2012 at 9:56:20 PM

It won't accomplish anything, but some things should be said anyway. This is censorship, plain and simple. In a single clumsy, heavy-handed move, hundreds of pages were removed for no other reason than a supposed threat to the reputation of the wiki itself. These pages allegedly hurt the innocent. Honestly, what kind of excuse is that? This wiki exists for the categorization of story telling tool and stories themselves! It is not meant to be glorified babysitter, making sure some precious snowflakes don't hurt their innocent eyes!

Fast Eddie claims that this is the way it has to be. Quite frankly, it's not, but we don't have a choice. TV Tropes does not have a competitor, so we'll be forced to accede because they're too busy fearing the slightest thing that could theoretically make an advertiser raise an eyebrow.

Wikipedia has articles describing worst content with a professional, detached voice, yet apparently, we can't even do that much! In fact, we have no say.

encrypted12345 Since: Jun, 2010
#493: Apr 14th 2012 at 9:59:59 PM

[up] I agree on principle, but...

It seriously cannot be helped.

Full Battle Mode
abstractematics Since: May, 2011
#494: Apr 14th 2012 at 10:02:13 PM

By the way, works could come into the several media, and not all of them be explicit. Only the medium that has explicit content should be considered.

Now using Trivialis handle.
setnakhte That's terrifying. from inside your closet Since: Nov, 2010
That's terrifying.
#495: Apr 14th 2012 at 10:02:20 PM

[up][up][up]Grow up. A) the council hasn't even been formed yet, and B) We're not talking about a shadowy government organization burning books, we're just talking about not allowing pages on some pretty fucked-up shit. This is not a free speech issue. The first amendment does not apply to the wiki. If you have nothing productive to add to the thread, please leave.

edited 14th Apr '12 10:02:28 PM by setnakhte

"Roll for whores."
Vyctorian ◥▶◀◤ from Domhain Sceal Since: Mar, 2011
◥▶◀◤
#496: Apr 14th 2012 at 10:04:28 PM

While I agree on principle this is no more censorship than say a cooking site, not allowing woodworking articles. Or dishes that call for people as ingredients.

edited 14th Apr '12 10:05:15 PM by Vyctorian

Rarely active, try DA/Tumblr Avatar by pippanaffie.deviantart.com
RhymeBeat True colors from Eastern Standard Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
TripleElation Diagonalizing The Matrix from Haifa, Isarel Since: Jan, 2001
Diagonalizing The Matrix
#498: Apr 14th 2012 at 10:05:06 PM

Wikipedia has articles describing worst content with a professional, detached voice, yet apparently, we can't even do that much!

Unlike us, Wikipedia doesn't have a "no negativity" rule. Once you're done reading the page on something nigh-universally acknowledged as evil or depraved you will walk away with the impression that it is a bad thing. This wiki, on the other hand, is by fans and for fans. You don't walk away from one of our pages thinking that its subject was a bad thing. As a result, we have a serious "depiction equals endorsement" issue.

Throwing around loaded words does not magically alter reality. The threat to the wiki's reputation is not "supposed", it is very real. There is nothing "alleged" about the negative feelings doubtlessly experienced by innocents who had to suffer any sort of sexual abuse when they ran across pages which depicted this abuse in a positive light. Discontinuing endorsement of that kind of media is not an "excuse", it is the honest reason we are doing this. An advertiser, namely Google, did not "theoretically" raise an eyebrow, but rather raised it in a very practical sense. And taking offense to positive depiction of child pornography certainly does not make one a "special snowflake" (especially given the meaning of that term, which apparently has nothing to do with any of this at all).

edited 14th Apr '12 10:06:55 PM by TripleElation

Pretentious quote || In-joke from fandom you've never heard of || Shameless self-promotion || Something weird you'll habituate to
SimplyDavid Loli Psychometer Level 7 from BABEL Since: Nov, 2011
Loli Psychometer Level 7
#499: Apr 14th 2012 at 10:05:48 PM

It kind of is censoring, actually, but that isn't the actual point no.

The real point here is that there does seem to have been some excess cutting, and with any luck things will be re-added that deserve to be re-added.

Technically this has been said but I wanted to throw in that I'm of the same opinion.

Token Loli!
RagnaTheSaviour Since: Oct, 2011
#500: Apr 14th 2012 at 10:08:23 PM

There's always the.. uh.. option of not doing anything? If it isn't broken, don't fix it.

edited 14th Apr '12 10:08:58 PM by RagnaTheSaviour


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