Batman General Discussion

Mark me down as a big ol' "Meh" for Selina. My big objection is actually that Bat-Cat feels too predictable - her codename is literally just Bruce's with a few letters swapped out here and there, and even her costume feels sort of like a deliberate attempt at creating a Distaff Counterpart of Batman.

Frankly, I really wish they'd give Zatanna another go - unlike Wonder Woman, she's not really "big" enough to hold down her own book and mythos for long, and I think having a magic-user run around in Gotham could genuinely open up a new avenue of stories you wouldn't get with any other love-interest.

(Just don't let Paul Dini write it. Seriously, the guy's post-BTAS record is hit and miss at best, but I have not read one Zatanna story of his that didn't put me to sleep.)

smokeycut : It's not "too late" for them, Selina and Bruce may have had relationships with other people, but people who "move on" for a time can and will occasionally find their way back to each other in life, and that is very true in comics. You're forgetting Bruce was barely out of his last romantic partnership before proposing to Selina, and Selina was also fresh off a relationship with Ekio before resuming a sexual relationship with Bruce and then accepting his proposal.

Tom King's already presented a future timeline where Selina and Bruce grow old together, indicating that no matter how far apart they are, all roads lead them back to each other. Geoff Johns is even writing a story in 'Tec 1000 where they're together and pitted against Joker and Harley. Whether or not that's a different timeline is irrelevant, the fact is the Bat-Cat 'ship will never truly sail or be sunk. Sooner or later, they WILL be married.

Edited by Zarius on Mar 24th 2019 at 10:08:21 AM

They very well may get married someday. But I think someone will then break them up again. See Cyclops & Jean Grey, or Nightwing & Starfire.

That said, my view of the relationship is my own. I have other options I prefer, like Selina/Slam and Bruce/Dr October. But that doesn’t invalidate other relationships. Fiction is malleable, especially comics.

Who's Dr. October?

When a female character from outside the Batman world becomes a love interest to Bruce, there is a tendency to have her characterization swallowed up by Batman's shadow. Diana and Zatanna have their own stories and their own love interests. None of that is worth sacrificing for them becoming victims of DC's obsession with painting Batman as the One Above All.

ehh, I don't get that vibe with Zatanna and Bruce at least. With Wonder Woman, I did like their dynamic in Justice league. One thing I notice with Wonder Woman's fandom is that they don't take kindly to Diana being shipped with anyone, or at least the parts I met.

And besides, no matter how Bat wonder is executed, it can't be worse than Super wonder right?

Edit: This reminds me an old story I saw somewhere, where Diana and Bruce see possible futures if they start dating or whatever, one is Wonder Woman losing herself to Gotham and becoming a vigilante willing to kill, and the other is Bruce as an old man dying happily with Wonder Woman still young, on Themiscira.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Mar 25th 2019 at 3:28:57 AM

I'm guessing it's the latter. Unless I imagined all those Diana/Artemis, Diana/Steve, Diana/Mera or Diana/Io shippers whose posts and fanfics I read. Hell, I find the idea there are WW fans against her being shipped with anyone at all hard to believe.

Not exactly a high bar to pass.

Another major problem with Bruce/Diana is that often the relationship was written as meaning more to Diana than it does to Bruce. There's an episode of Batman Beyond where we see Bruce browsing through pictures of women that he's been romantically involved with or had feelings for. And Diana wasn't among them. Bruce Timm even admitted he only came up with the Wonder Bat idea because he couldn't think of anything better to do for Diana.

Bruce/Zatanna suffers from this to an extent as well where Bruce clearly doesn't feel as strongly for her as she does for him.

Edited by windleopard on Mar 25th 2019 at 3:47:56 AM

Well, considering how much women Bruce Timm paired Bruce Wayne with (including rewriting some women, who weren't in love with Bruce in comics (in main continuity at least), like Barbara Gordon and Lois Lane), i think he is another follower of "Bat-God" among creators (like Frank Miller, Doug Moench (writer of "JLA: Act of God") and ec.). Which is why he have Bruce to be so casual about relationships, as he said to Terry how he "walked over women, who thrown themselfs at his feet".

I know Bruce is supposed to play the role of a playboy but eesshh. I will say this about the DCAU, I felt that they could have done the superheroes, who aren't Batman and Superman, better. I imagine to a lot of hard core Wonder Woman fans out there must be saddened about the material the DCAU failed to adopt. I mean I'm like a super casual observer, but isn't Circe supposed to be more threatening than how she was in the DCAU?

@Redhunter She’s a character from James Tynion’s Detective Comics run. A mad scientist type who is old friends with Batman.

And I do think that when Bruce dates non-Batman characters, it feels a fair bit awkward. It feels like they’re leaving their own world just to be a part of his. And I struggle to remember anytime that he’s done the opposite, and popped up in another series as Wonder Woman’s or Zatanna’s boyfriend.

Something that isn't acknowledged about Bruce "playing the role of a playboy" is that he's also stringing along the women he dates.

She is.

it's always hilarious when Bruce runs into those ladies he strings along and faces the consequences. Like in Mask of the Phantasm, where a lady throws champagne at him.

I mean Bruce Timm may have portrayed Bruce has an actual playboy when it comes to serious dates, but Bruce ends up alone in the end.

Speaking off, from what I know of Circe, Ares, and whichever Cheetah is supposed to be the one, they would have made excellent villains in the DCAU. Cheetah is reduced to Bruce's conquest and Circe is swooning at Kevin Conroy's voice and Ares is wasted. you look at how The DCAU propelled Static Shock to the Mainstream and people know his rogues and history, I feel most outside observers who know Wonder Woman but not her history, characters, or villains are only now realizing how great Wondy is after the movie. I feel the DCAU could have given the boost earlier, if they did more with Wonder Woman's long history.

Too bad she didn't get her own show before JL started, right?

I just finished Batman: White Knight and it is by far the single dumbest thing DC has ever produced.

I kind of like Joker surfing on the Batmobile.

The "twist" with the Harley Quinn doppelganger was interesting. Makes more sense to me than there being three Jokers that Batman never knew about.

It's a shame comic books obey the status quo - seeing Joker actually heal and maybe become a morally credible person is where I'd like to see the story go.

But other then that, yes, I agree. It was a really bad attempt at being topical and painting Batman as the villain.

Edited by Soble on Mar 27th 2019 at 4:59:32 AM

It could have been great, if they had the balls to keep it a Batman vs Joker storyline with perspectives flipped and none of this Neo Joker nonsense.

I appreciated that White Knight actually had a message different from what people think that: in fact, Dick and Babs and so many people have almost no faith in Bruce and that he's constantly juggling countless problems better than most people could ever hope to. The Joker's attempt to bring him down as the White Knight was just another variant on his usual tactics. Bruce may have not ridden it ideally but he did it better than most. It was a nice Reconstruction rather than a Deconstruction.

I mean, i will admit it ended pretty nicely actually, and Batman acknowledging his sadistic streak even if he takes it on villains is not healthy and his solution to gaining the public trust back is interesting, but that's not what i wanted out of the story personally. I wanted a fascinating deconstruction of Batman, a redemption arc of the Joker who had to confront his many MANY crimes and atone. BUT NOPE, Jack still is evil in my opinion,he brainwashes the rogues, and causes property damage and yet we are supposed to believe he's the good guy, but he's hypocritical at best. An unneeded Jason Todd subplot that goes nowhere and OOC for both Harley and Joker, Neo Joker derailed the plot even harder, and OG Harley not even being Harley accurate.

I feel that making White Knight Joker more of a goofy prankster than the homicidal maniac he usually is weakens the premise. i honestly had to re-read some issues in a double take because people were saying they couldn't track down any violent crimes from the Joker of all people. AS it stands, the plot feels like something that's more Penguin or even Two Face then Joker.

Speaking as an author, I think the best way to think of any romance for a eternally published character like Superman or Batman is not to think of romances as Happily Ever After but Maybe Ever After with a strong element of writing it for the time being. So I am happy to see Bruce get married to Selena and hope that I'd get a couple of years out of them as a married couple only for them to get broken up by whatever means that might happen later.

• Catwoman gets amnesia about their marriage
• Someone mind-controlled them into it with a little push
• The priest was actually Brother Blood
• Vandal Savage tries to kill Selina's loved ones or Batman so they get it anulled

Blah blah blah.

I even apply it to the Spiderman/Mary Jane thing where I would have loved for them to be treated as a permanently changed couple but it could have been LESS offensive just about any other way. I dunno, Mary Jane was a live model decoy and the real one has been amnesiac in Paris since their marriage began with it all being a plot of Mysterio! Spiderman saves Gwen Stacy or Harry Osbourne but it ruins his marriage via time travel. The usual.

So when I think Bruce/Diana and Bruce/Zatanna (the latter which I'd love to see) I think of, "would stories with them together be great?"

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Mar 28th 2019 at 1:16:21 AM

In regards to Bruce and Zatanna at least, i very much do like their dynamic, like Bruce is so grumpy but Zatanna is so cheerful, and they complement each other in that way. I loved that story where they both team up against a magician who later turns out to be The Joker, they really work well together in my opinion.

But as a writer, why do you think DC and Marvel are so marriage phobic? The fact that it " ages them " is thrown out, but i think a bit of wish fulfillment personally comes into play, i see it prevalent with Joe Q. Or is it like Japanese idol singers where they aren't allowed to date because it ruins the customer's fantasies?

I’m thinking of a Jason Todd story where he’s back to being a psycho kill-happy vigilante.

Total Blood Knight & pragmatist who makes frequent use of bombs, poison, & snipering to get the job done.

Also maybe adopt a couple Joker mannerisms like a penchant for cackling or a more visible sense of humor.

No angst about Bats or Bats having angst in return though. They are both over that, Jason does what he wants with no regrets & Bats try’s to stop him as much as he can.

Edited by slimcoder on Mar 28th 2019 at 1:44:55 AM

There's a common (inaccurate imo) belief that married or committed couples are less interesting than the "will they, won't they" couples or characters who are single throughout the story. This isn't just believed of superheroes but of all fiction. Many claim that when a couple gets together the story has "jumped the shark".

Mind you there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. Monica and Chandler of Friends are among the most beloved tv couples of all time whereas Rachel/Ross (which infamously played the "will they, won't they" game for the entirety of the show's run) are divisive at best.

I agree on Zee and Batman. I also note that Batman and her have a much healthier dynamic than Zee and John Constantine (their usual pairing). Some established couples have since drifted apart in ways that I don't think they don't work anymore like Green Arrow and Black Canary.

Joe Quesada more or less stated that it was actually a wish fulilment element in his interview on the subject and said part of his problem with the Spiderman/Mary Jane marriage was that it limited stories he could tell with the Black Cat/Spiderman relationship being one that he wanted to write about but that no longer possible (notably, Black Cat most certainly did not get that opportunity).

But I have a slightly more forgiving attitude as a whole in that [i]melodrama[/i] is the heart of Superhero stories and that it's closest equivalent to non-superhero stories is soap operas crossed with professional wrestling. Marriages are things that superhero stories can draw a lot of wonderful stories from but the inherent life of a superhero is one of constant upheavals and tragedies that flow from one to the next.

I admit to abusing this trope myself in my writing where the easiest way to make a superhero story relevant is to seriously disrupt their lives. Soap operas are, at least from my experience watching them growing up, are a constant collection of break-ups, hook-ups, marriages, and shake-ups. The status quo is always shifting from writer to writer and vision to vision. This isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Say, you have landed a gig as a writer for Superman. You really love Superman and want to write stories about him. However, the current continuity has him in a relationship with Wonder Woman. You're a fan of Superman and Lois Lane so you have them get married, have a child, and Connor Kent. The fans love it.

But maybe your replacement doesn't want to write about Superman and Lois Lane living in Smallville, Kansas. Maybe you'd prefer they be back at Metropolis. So you send off the child to become an adult. This may not be popular. However, it allows you to write your story. Maybe your vision for the character is also a good deal more out there. Maybe you want to have Superman in a serious relationship with Lana Lang or rekindle his relationship with Lori Lemaris the mermaid.

I suppose my perspective is that I consider superheroes less like one continuous storyline of existing characters and more like Legos. Everyone wants to tell their Batman or Superman story. I don't think they should necessarily be marriage phobic but I also think permanent changes to the status quo of superheroes are things that don't necessarily HAVE to stick to be meaningful.

So I regret the Cat Bat marriage didn't happen but I didn't think it would last anyway as a permanent status quo. I just thought it would last a bit longer than this.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Mar 28th 2019 at 2:29:11 AM

So in today's issue of the Batman Who laughs, we get more insight as to how as a persona he works. Apparently the Batman who laughs is a sort of split personality, sort of like Arkham Knight, so a part of Bruce is still there. huh.

Looks like Selina finally has a new rebound interest. This will go down well in some corners...

I don't sweat it though, this is what happened with Dick and Babs back when Dick was with Spiral, Babs tried moving on, but the relationship fell apart once she started travelling and by the time she got back to Burnside, she wasn't interested in Luke and tried several stabs at getting back with Dick. Selina will be the same, try to move on and be "normal" with the well-meaning artist guy, only to be dragged back into Bruce's world. Oh sure they may have a few years as just friends, but eventually they'll reconnect romantically as is always the case. I still think the future in Batman annual#2 isn't an elseworlds

Edited by Zarius on Apr 10th 2019 at 4:45:35 AM