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Would you really try to change yourself just to get into heaven?

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RTaco Since: Jul, 2009
#51: Apr 9th 2012 at 8:31:11 AM

If I knew that heaven existed, I'd do just about anything to get in. Even if it has requirements I disagree with, I'm not exactly in a position where arguing them would accomplish anything other than screwing myself over.

It's why I don't get "If God exists and he's a jerk, then I'm not going to listen to him."

edited 9th Apr '12 8:32:50 AM by RTaco

TenTailsBeast The Ultimate Lifeform from The Culture Since: Feb, 2012
#52: Apr 9th 2012 at 8:46:45 AM

What if it was the "praise God for eternity and bask in His Glory" version of heaven?

I vowed, and so did you: Beyond this wall- we would make it through.
juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#53: Apr 9th 2012 at 9:13:54 AM

Would you really try to change yourself just to get into heaven?

not exactly, but if I believe I need change to lead a better life, I will, and if said change leads to me getting into heaven, then that's a good side benefit.

Now, I don't believe in higher powers, but if it motivates other people to be better, then there's nothing wrong with that. The only issue is when you start upholding people to that religion's standards instead to an standard of normal and common morality and ethics.

Now, if I was offered a good afterlife (With one hundred per cent certainty that this will be done and it's not just some priest's promise in order to convert to their religion) under some terms I do not agree with, would I do it? I think that's a more heady question and one worth examining.

Personally, I'm going with yes. A lot of the times, the requisites of a good afterlife sync up with the goals I set up for myself. Granted, the same doesn't apply for everyone else, but there ya go.

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
ThatOneGuyNamedX Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#54: Apr 9th 2012 at 9:21:25 AM

[up][up] That version makes zero sense whatsoever. God, being omnipotent, omniprescent and shit wouldn't need or want anyone to "bask in the glory of blah blah blah"

I mean, what sense does it make for something that allegedly created everything and it's an all knowing entity beyond good and evil to say "bitch, worship me or you don't get in my club"? It's just downright stupid.

@Carcio The question is not wether or not it exists at all, but if there are actually any requisites to get in. Which, there aren't, going by Christian standards.

I think it's better to see it as an allegory to our own species' and civilization, rather than a specific guideline to get somewhere.

edited 9th Apr '12 9:21:57 AM by ThatOneGuyNamedX

Exelixi Lesbarian from Alchemist's workshop Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Lesbarian
#55: Apr 9th 2012 at 9:22:08 AM

Redefining the topic a bit. . . . I don't believe in a single universe-creating deity, or an eternal reward.

I believe in multiple gods, though I follow three in particular and two especially, and an endless or near-endless reincarnation cycle.

That said, if we broaden the question a little, to include, would you really change yourself for some spiritual reason, then yes. I strive to improve myself, to become closer to my goddesses, and to better do their wills on Earth, as well as for my own spiritual benefit.

Mura: -flips the bird to veterinary science with one hand and Euclidean geometry with the other-
juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#57: Apr 9th 2012 at 9:49:23 AM

Oh, I most definetly love where this is going.

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
ThatOneGuyNamedX Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#58: Apr 9th 2012 at 10:01:26 AM

[up][up] Well, if that's all you have to say on the subject, then I see no point in arguing it any further.

inane242 Anwalt der Verdammten from A B-Movie Bildungsroman Since: Nov, 2010
Anwalt der Verdammten
#59: Apr 9th 2012 at 10:07:15 AM

@ OP: Nah.

The 5 geek social fallacies. Know them well.
NLK Mo A Since: May, 2010
#60: Apr 9th 2012 at 1:30:55 PM

Not in my definition of heaven. You seem to think pleasure is bad in and of itself. While there are people and religions who preach that, I'm positive they're wrong, as much as anyone can ever be.

Likes many underrated webcomics
spasticgecko Dat Troper from Maryland Since: Oct, 2011
Dat Troper
#61: Apr 9th 2012 at 1:48:58 PM

I don't completely agree with X (I'm protestant, I believe that heaven and hell are real though they are likely non-physical, and I believe that it is true belief that gets you into heaven), but he brings up a pretty imprtant point that for some reason is consistently passed over by most people.

That is, the belief that sinning knocks you out of the running for heaven is completely inaccurate and a little insulting, and also doing anything with the sole hope of going to heaven is completely selfish.

By the Christian doctrine (at least the most common protestant version), everyone is born a sinner already. Ever since Eve ate the fruit the automatic setting on (mature, conscious, aware, etc.) humans has been "going to hell." That's what sacrificing and rituals and whatnot were all abou in the Old Testament. It's also the whole reason Jesus came down and died and rose again and everything; not only to teach but to save. The idea is that Jesus took everyone's sins and took the bullet for them so that all you have to do to go to heaven is accept the offer. Some people believe that a basic goodness is also required, but I'd argue that if you believe in God (well, actually, no matter what you believe, if you care at all) you'd want to do good anyway. Beyond that everything gets muddled and differs greatly by person, but the basic idea is the same.

Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#62: Apr 9th 2012 at 1:58:40 PM

Some people believe that a basic goodness is also required, but I'd argue that if you believe in God (well, actually, no matter what you believe, if you care at all) you'd want to do good anyway.
I agree. To believe in God and not to want to do good is not belief in God, but in something else entirely; and on the other hand, I think, a sincere desire to do good expresses some sort of an allegiance, perhaps not expressed along these lines, to an imperfectly understood idea of Good.

Ultimately, I think, the whole faith/works debate is based on a misunderstanding, as well as on the idea that "faith" consists in nothing more than explicit belief in the truth of certain propositions.

There is no true faith without good works; and on the other hand, there are no good works without some measure of true faith.

edited 9th Apr '12 2:01:09 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
Edmania o hai from under a pile of erasers Since: Apr, 2010
o hai
#63: Apr 11th 2012 at 12:06:49 AM

That said, "Salvation" then means to thrive and prosper as a species, rather than an individual.

...well now I never want to go to the "Heaven" of Christianity.

I think the big angel statues and loads of stained glass and songs about God's love mislead me when I was going to Catholic church if "Heaven" and "Hell" just = "earth where people aren't dicks" or "earth where everyone is a dick"

obsolete for almost a century now

...I don't understand how this kind of thing goes obsolete.

Heck, heaven itself is an allegory for earth, when you get down to it. if we all do good and have goodwill towards each other, earth would be a great place, if we all did evil and took advantage of everyone everywhere, suddenly it starts to suck. See how it goes? Be good, things are good, be evil, things suck.

I can only think of that applying if diseases, natural disasters, animals other than humans, etc. do the same(and if resources suddenly exploded into surplus somehow...)

If people learned from their mistakes, there wouldn't be this thing called bad habits.
SpookyMask Since: Jan, 2011
#64: Apr 11th 2012 at 12:16:15 AM

I'm apathetic about what religion is real and whether any of them are real, but according to Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland, humans can't save themselves with their own deeds, only by faith and mercy of God tongue

Assuming that I would take stances on religions, I would say "No" because that would be really hypocritical tongue

AcesoldierZero Acesoldier Zero from Vicenza, Italy Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I wanna know about these strangers like me
#65: Apr 11th 2012 at 9:22:56 AM

I think that anyone trying to become a better person and considering more carefully how their actions can impact others would make it into heaven. Trying to become a better person on Earth and better help others is an admirable goal, regardless of your religious belief or lack thereof, and I think any effort to do that would be rewarded in the afterlife. As a Christian, I think that God is generally willing to forgive all but the most unrepentant evildoers, and given how flawed humanity is a species, He would have to essentially be YHVH as portrayed in Shin Megami Tensei to sent someone to Hell for the vast majority of little moral infractions we all make. If I made it into Heaven, I'd fully expect to see my Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, and atheist friends and family up there also, since they try to be good people, regardless of how they feel about the existence and nature of God.

https://soundcloud.com/rich-justice-hinmen Too white for the black kids, too white for the white kids.
ThatOneGuyNamedX Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#66: Apr 11th 2012 at 9:32:41 AM

...I don't understand how this kind of thing goes obsolete.

Easy. You know how Jews don't consume pig? It's not because god came down to earth and said "Yo, those pigs are mine!", but because people got diseases and died from eating Pig back then. So, the best way to get everyone to stop eating pig, and, you know, dying, would be to say "Hey, guys, god totally came down to me and told me eating pork is a sin! don't do it". People respond better to being threatened than reasoned with. Because we're stupid.

Of course, now that's obsolete, because we have better sanitation, and everyone knows thanks to factual information that Pig meat can be filled with infections under the wrong circumstances. That's how "holy" scripture becomes obsolete.

I can only think of that applying if diseases, natural disasters, animals other than humans, etc. do the same(and if resources suddenly exploded into surplus somehow...)

Yes, because scientific research has never cured a disease, goodwill foundations and government efforts have never helped people recover from natural disasters, and animals have a conscience instead of, silly things like "instincts", and morality can be applied to them, too. How could I not see that before?

Exelixi Lesbarian from Alchemist's workshop Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Lesbarian
#67: Apr 11th 2012 at 9:33:38 AM

[up][up]I find myself agreeing with you and Carcio, from the opposite perspective. Good is good, no matter the source, and a good Christian is as much a blessing as a good Pagan.

[up]Your implication that an animal has no conscious will offends me.

edited 11th Apr '12 9:35:35 AM by Exelixi

Mura: -flips the bird to veterinary science with one hand and Euclidean geometry with the other-
ThatOneGuyNamedX Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#68: Apr 11th 2012 at 9:38:20 AM

Animals live on instincts. They don't tend for their young because they "love" them, nor do they kill because they "hate", they follow their instincts of survival. For an animal, to kill a person in order to feed itself is no worse than to kill another animal to feed itself.

Sure, they are conscious, but I wouldn't say they're entirely sentient beyond trying to feed, mate and survive.

Exelixi Lesbarian from Alchemist's workshop Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Lesbarian
#69: Apr 11th 2012 at 9:44:25 AM

Who is to say they aren't capable of love? My dog knows he doesn't need to play with me and lick my face in order to survive, but he does it anyway. What is there to indicate that he does not love me? Love, being a product of chemical surges at its basest level, can be experienced by things other than humans.

Hate is a little more complex, but it, too, is largely instinctual. Apes go to war against each other for no discernible reason- if that isn't ate, what is?

Mura: -flips the bird to veterinary science with one hand and Euclidean geometry with the other-
juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#70: Apr 11th 2012 at 9:44:28 AM

^^ The word you're looking for is "Sapient".

edited 11th Apr '12 9:44:41 AM by juancarlos

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
ThatOneGuyNamedX Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#71: Apr 11th 2012 at 9:52:42 AM

[up] Thanks, that's what I meant.

[up][up] It does it because you feed it. Apes go to "war" over territory, food, and females, much like us. And what you mean by "love" is better defined as "affection".

...Damnit, I'm starting to sound like a dick. Look, I don't meant to be rude, or to trample over your views. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong, I'm just saying that I find it very hard to believe a non sapient animal would gain emotional attachments and understand concepts of "good and evil" the way human beings do, because they don't do things by instinct. Housepets remain in one home because they are fed and protected, and maybe they make bonds similar to those of a mother and a child (which are rooted, again, in nourishment and protection), but I wouldn't say they can think and reason the same way we do. I'm sorry if I'm being rude or if I said anything to offend you. It wasn't my intention.

RTaco Since: Jul, 2009
#72: Apr 11th 2012 at 11:21:00 AM

Animal behavior and human behavior are both motivated by instinct and emotion; there's a lot of overlap between the two, and in some cases they're the same thing.

We're not special in the animal kingdom.

ThatOneGuyNamedX Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#73: Apr 11th 2012 at 11:28:12 AM

That's debatable. While we have the same instincts as any other animal, saying we depend on them to the level they do is highly debatable.

And, how are we "not special" in the animal kingdom, considering, armed only with ingenuity and thumbs, we've managed to form civilizations, cultures, art and all that? One thing is to say "We're still animals", but undermining the importance of our advancements as a species just because "we're animals" is very shortsighted.

RTaco Since: Jul, 2009
#74: Apr 11th 2012 at 11:35:12 AM

We're just really smart animals. There's no magic "sapience" line we crossed; it's all just a matter of degree.

edited 11th Apr '12 11:35:58 AM by RTaco

ThatOneGuyNamedX Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#75: Apr 11th 2012 at 11:38:51 AM

Right. Really smart animals. And the sky is just "really dry water". And planets are just "Really big boulders". And the sun is just a "really large match head".


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