To get to Nibbana? Yes. In fact I am willing and going to abandon the very concept of "self" as I know it to get that. Including all of my "sensual" relationships. For now though I will be an honorable layman.
If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah-Jean Paul Sartre (*Attributed*)
The 5 geek social fallacies. Know them well.If we go strictly by what I call "Heaven" then no because that isn't a worthy goal. So what? A couple thousand years of bliss. Whoopdy doo. I'm still going to die and I'm still going to go back to living as a pain prone form of life.
^Only if "No pain ever again" is a part of the deal and depending on what the requirements are.
edited 8th Apr '12 6:04:22 PM by Aondeug
If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan ChahYou assume I believe in the afterlife in the first place...
/shrug/ When I die, I expect to become worm food, which will then spread everything that's a part of me into soil, which will feed grass and plants, which will feed animals, which will feed people down the line. I much prefer the factual knowledge that everything that is a part of me will go on to support the lives of others in ways I never did in life, to the unlikely chance that my personality or soul or whatever might somehow "live on."
If it does, neat. If it doesn't, oh well. I'm still going to be me, and do what I think I ought to be doing in life. If some obscure, inscrutable being that lives on a higher dimension wants to judge me for refusing to believe in it without any proof it exists... well, it's kind of a petty dick, at that point.
Well, that depends on what version of "heaven" you're thinking about.
The catholic one doesn't exist, since it's more like a state of mind where the soul is closer to god or something like that.
On the other hand, most christian denominations believe that either way, you're going to heaven. You know, died for our sins and whatnot. The idea isn't just "DON'T DO THIS DON'T DO THAT" as much as it is "DON'T DO EVIL".
OP, your post seems to be based on the TV version of heaven, i.e., big, cloudy fluffy place that you don't go to if you look under a skirt once, which, frankly, is not only tired and stereotyped, but really offensive to those of us who actually know what we believe in. I'm sorry, but that vision of "Heaven" and "Hell" you see is just... offensively misinformed. Very much so.
For Catholics, at least, "heaven" and "hell" don't exist, since we are all part of God and our souls would rest with him regardless of what your actions in life where.
Heck, heaven itself is an allegory for earth, when you get down to it. if we all do good and have goodwill towards each other, earth would be a great place, if we all did evil and took advantage of everyone everywhere, suddenly it starts to suck. See how it goes? Be good, things are good, be evil, things suck.
Well, operating as I do on an assumption of no divine beings and no afterlife, I can say I'm completly unwilling to gain admission to Heaven through changing myself.
However, if I could glimpse Hell and see it as a place of active and eternal pain and suffering (not just the agony of not knowing God's love, I already live with the agony of not knowing the love of a whole slew of starlettes), I'd likely not have the ability to stand up for my principles, and I'd do whatever it takes to not go to Hell.
Charlie Tunoku is a lover and a fighter.Eh. On the one hand, I strongly believe in rational self-interest, a healthily strong ego, amoralism, and the virtues of non-repression. But on the other hand, I am rather skeptical of the view that there is a "one true self" with we should always act in accordance with. I tend to think it's all a matter of choice who we are.
I vowed, and so did you: Beyond this wall- we would make it through.The point of Heaven last I checked was to be the final reward for your hard work. To get into Heaven, Nirvana, Brahman, etc, etc, it always involves perfecting yourself as a person to attempt to reach a goal well out of an any person's ability to actually achieve.
The idea is not to lose a part of yourself but to improve upon yourself. Now whatever you find to be the best route to improving yourself, go for it, it just likely won't be easy but it will be rewarding.
The emotions of others can seem like such well guarded mysteries, people 8egin to 8elieve that's how their own emotions should 8e treated.Alternatively, write an honest biography about Jesus and you get to live somewhere pleasant if not spiritually fulfilling.
Charlie Tunoku is a lover and a fighter.I try to do what's right every day and attempt to make the lives of those around me better as much as I can, through respect, integrity, and honesty, and without faltering simply when it's convenient for me. If that's not good enough for heaven, heaven can piss right off. I don't need eternal bliss, peace, happiness, or whatever else, anyway; the suffering in my life has made me a better person every single time. It's taught me how to react to future situations, and it's taught me that I can implement those lessons for the good of others as well as myself.
Screw who I "really" am, though; I was born a selfish, arrogant, egotistical twat that thought only of herself and used her misery as a weapon against other people. But I changed who I am because it was the right thing to do, not as a ticket to some shallow payoff I'm not even guaranteed in the first place. I personally despise the mindset of being a half-decent person just because you're afraid of what will happen to you after your life if you're not. If there is such a thing as reincarnation, I hope such selfishness is rewarded with another spin at the wheel until you figure out there are more important things than you.
I don't get worked up about such things as reincarnation and the afterlife anyway, though. All I know is what I can perceive, and there are no tangible benefits behind acting otherwise, the way I see it; as I mentioned, I don't require bliss, peace, or happiness in the first place, and I'm more than content with the knowledge that every day I live could be my last, and that afterward there could very well be nothing whatsoever for me, or for anyone. I've made my peace with the world, and if some otherworldly checks and balance system is in effect, and they end up appreciating that, grand, but I'm hardly living with it in mind.
Which isn't to say I've got no reason to live. I have a lot to learn, including how I can do something to avert the pointless misery people willingly inflict on themselves on a regular basis, and besides that, I have a certain someone that I owe a life of love, acceptance, and comfort to, and she and I have a lot to teach each other about being better and stronger people. Dying wouldn't be very productive, at the very least.
Cynics are optimists that have become used to disappointment.No, I wouldn't, because I don't believe in divine powers, and if I did, I wouldn't accept such a being that was willing to send nonbelievers, infidels, etc. to wherever else they would go.
With that said, I still believe in doing right by humanity as much as humanly possible because it's just the right thing to do. It's not to say that I never do anything wrong - I most certainly do. But I think that proper atonement and good deeds to make up for it.
But to answer the question a little more directly - Taking for granted the notion of Heaven as it exists in Christian Mythology, and assuming the existence of the Abrahamic God, would I change myself to get into heaven. Yes, I would, because I would know objectively and beyond a doubt the nature of Good and Evil. However, God and Heaven both may or may not exist, and I can't know what Good and Evil are with certainty. Thus, all I have to go by is my own morals and my own nature. If there is a God, and that God (or whatever deity might be out there) wants to condemn me for that, I have two digits I'd like to point in His direction.
I wouldn't accept such a being that was willing to send nonbelievers, infidels, etc. to wherever else they would go.
OK, I'm going to say this once, and walk away from this thread, Not trying to start a fight or anything.
That's not how it works. I can't speak for every christian out there, but at least in Catholicism, "Heaven" is something you don't "earn" as much as you just get there. The whole "be good, don't be evil" thing is just an allegory on how to live prosperous on earth as a species.
In detail check my earlier post.
edited 8th Apr '12 6:43:44 PM by Fuschlatz
That's assuming the deity is vengeful of course. Not that I care about my concept of God. Meh on the All. It just exists and is what I consider Perfect since it is everything at once. Hell it's technically supposed to be in the "Don't care" box!
edited 8th Apr '12 6:45:19 PM by Aondeug
If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan ChahObsolete? Perhaps among theologians, but not the general populace. Then of course there's another common view, which is that you only reach heaven if you accept Jesus as your lord and savior. Universal reconciliation is a very marginal view.
I vowed, and so did you: Beyond this wall- we would make it through.Except I don't believe in doing what one thinks is right if it causes harm, so.
My life philosophy is basically "do whatever you want as long as it doesn't tangibly harm anyone else". This means that people who think homosexuals harm "their family values" and whatnot by doing absolutely nothing related to them, for example, do not count. You're not hurting anyone by being gay in that case; you're just offending someone, and if that someone gets offended by someone else who's minding their own business, they deserve to be annoyed, frankly.
However, if you're a huge prick and just happen to be gay, that's another thing altogether. You're still a huge prick; you don't get a free pass because you're gay.
Cynics are optimists that have become used to disappointment.Afterthought: The above is more my life philosophy and expectation for other people. I hold myself to the same thing, but also have much more specific and demanding requirements for myself, because my actions are the only ones I can directly control.
This is more information than any of you but Aondeug will ever require, but eh.
Cynics are optimists that have become used to disappointment.Do you weigh harms in a deontological or consequentialist way?
I vowed, and so did you: Beyond this wall- we would make it through.OP:
Change is abandoning a part of who you are. That change can be due to your determination or due to outside pressure. We cope with changes in our lives, and we find it acceptable. No one remains completely static.
Now consider the change in question: do you want to be good? Would you want to become someone that's aligned and sided with goodness?
Huh? Not sure what you mean by that... My understanding was that the church regards heaven as real. It may depend on how serious a branch of that church is about the belief.
Now using Trivialis handle.Weird. I've gone to church all my life and the one thing every priest hammers down on us is "It's not about going to heaven or hell, it's about making earth a more pleasant place for all". It's so simple, yet no one ANYWHERE gets it. People everywhere still think "If you masturbate you go to hell, young man!", when in reality, if you're going by Catholic ideas, NEITHER OF THOSE EVEN PHYSICALLY EXIST. I don't know much about protestants, that I'll admit, and maybe over at the US people still think that way, but The bibles pretty much spell out "You get a free pass, but try to be nice on earth". I'm sorry, but I find it incredibly offensive when someone throws out a generalization like that.
Salvation is not a concept about doing what the good book tells you, it's about introspection, realizing we're not alone in the world, that out actions affect other people, and that only by living in harmony and good will towards each other can we reach an apex as a civilization, yet so many people think that The Bible, The Qur'an, and every other book is a straight out guideline to go to heaven or hell. THAT IS NOT HOW IT WORKS, heaven and hell are only metaphors for our own species' state as a social group. That said, "Salvation" then means to thrive and prosper as a species, rather than an individual.

Because I, for one, would never want to get into heaven if it means abandoning a part of who I truly am.
Firstly, consider the fact that you're being told to abandon a part of who you are. The way I see it, no-one — not even a divine being — has the right to do that except you yourself. I personally do not believe in the validity of any religion that tells you you'll go to hell if you willingly commit even one instance of a certain act that rational people will objectively view as humane.
I know that first point may sound somewhat cliche, but there's another not-so-well-known argument that I'd like to bring up:
If you think about it, would you really be happy in a heaven where you're most likely still not allowed to do what you forbade yourself from doing in life to reach this "glorious afterlife" in the first place? The way I see it, Satan doesn't care what any of his victims did in life — all that matters is that God sent them to him, and now they're his playthings. I know it still sounds like a horrible afterlife, but I would definitely choose a hell where Satan doesn't dole out extra punishment for me if I keep "sinning"...
To put the second point into perspective: Would any of you want to go to heaven if it turns out to be full of Westboro Baptists?
edited 8th Apr '12 5:58:38 PM by Fuschlatz