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Discussion of religion in the context of LGBT rights is only allowed in this thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBT rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

edited 4th Oct '13 8:26:43 AM by Madrugada

Elfive not sure this one's actually a skull, but w/e from London
not sure this one's actually a skull, but w/e
Feb 3rd 2014 at 7:45:04 AM

So what you're saying is that only about a quarter of those kids experienced anything resembling being raised by a same-sex couple for their entire development.

I stopped worrying about strange men on the internet around the time I became one.
Feb 3rd 2014 at 7:49:45 AM

[up]No, 23% lived with their mother and her partner for at least 3 years. That is nowhere near their entire development.

Anyway, my point was that there is a basis for believing that homosexual couples are not optimal places to place children. This was addressing Sixthhokage1's point of if they have a basis for doing it in our attempt to answer the question, "why should a private adoption agency be forced to place children in homes which, according to their beliefs, are not suitable?"

My answer to the question is that no, they should not. Even if I disagree with them what constitutes a suitable home.

edited 3rd Feb '14 7:51:02 AM by Soban

Feb 3rd 2014 at 7:51:49 AM

And that basis is fatally flawed research that has been condemned by many other professional researchers such as the American Sociological Association.

Elfive not sure this one's actually a skull, but w/e from London
not sure this one's actually a skull, but w/e
Feb 3rd 2014 at 7:53:31 AM

If 23% lived with a same sex couple for more than 3 years, that means that 77% did not. Meaning that most of the children studied were being shunted around parents rather than living in a stable home environment.

edited 3rd Feb '14 7:54:28 AM by Elfive

I stopped worrying about strange men on the internet around the time I became one.
KingNick1995 from Somewhere over the waynebow Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
Feb 3rd 2014 at 7:55:21 AM

I think the first job of an adoption agency is get kids adopted into good homes irregardless of what religion or sexual beliefs prospective parents have. I understand withholding for criminals or sexual offenders but same sex couples are (usually) neither.

Presenting!
Feb 3rd 2014 at 7:57:49 AM

But what if you believe that homosexual couples are not good homes?

Zendervai Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy from St. Catharines Relationship Status: Wishing you were here
Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy
Feb 3rd 2014 at 7:58:53 AM

Then go to a different adoption agency.

Also, an adoption agency is supposed to really look into each specific couple. If they find a homosexual couple who would be amazing parents, the agency probably shouldn't just deny them because they are gay.

edited 3rd Feb '14 7:59:42 AM by Zendervai

Morgikit Mikon :3 from War Drobe, Spare Oom Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Mikon :3
Feb 3rd 2014 at 7:59:06 AM
Thumped: This post was thumped by the Stick of Off-Topic Thumping. Stay on topic, please.
KingNick1995 from Somewhere over the waynebow Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
Feb 3rd 2014 at 7:59:50 AM

Then you could do some extra background checks and interviews. But if the Parents prove to be good for the kid and vice versa then adoption should proceed.

Presenting!
Elfive not sure this one's actually a skull, but w/e from London
not sure this one's actually a skull, but w/e
Feb 3rd 2014 at 8:00:30 AM

@Soban: What if you believe that mixed-race couples are not good homes?

edited 3rd Feb '14 8:01:18 AM by Elfive

I stopped worrying about strange men on the internet around the time I became one.
Feb 3rd 2014 at 8:02:34 AM

Individual beliefs have no bearing in it. If they are in an objectively unstable situation, there is good reason not to allow a person to adopt. However, a homosexual relationship is not objectively unstable.

Feb 3rd 2014 at 8:06:38 AM

@Morg, First, even if everything ya'll say is true, then placing a child into a homosexual couple is not a great idea. Second, it disagrees with my religious beliefs and I want my child to be raised into the same beliefs that I was. On that second criteria alone, I would reject all homosexual couples, all non-christian couples, and more then a few christian couples.

@Elfive, (I'm going to get hell for this.) If a private adoption agency believes that mixed race couples are not suitable, then they should not have to place kids with mixed race couples.

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros
Cleric of Banjo
Feb 3rd 2014 at 8:06:50 AM

I skipped a few posts (only been looking at the last few pages), but I think Soban is arguing that it is impossible for a homosexual to be a good parent (and thus Soban opposes homosexuals being allowed to adopt). Homosexuals are the moral equivalent of thieves (insert criminal of choice), and for Soban, a homosexual parent is equivalent to a parent who is a professional criminal who raises their child to believe that crime is ok.

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Feb 3rd 2014 at 8:09:41 AM

@Hodor, actually no. My argument is that they believe homosexuality is wrong and are not suitable for the various reasons. (and I share some of them) They should then not be forced to place children in homes that they believe are not suitable.

@Homosexuals are the moral equivalent of thieves (insert criminal of choice), for Soban, a homosexual parent is equivalent to a parent who is a professional criminal who raises their child to believe that crime is ok.

Given the moral code of the Bible, yes. It is morally equivalent.

edited 3rd Feb '14 8:11:13 AM by Soban

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros
Cleric of Banjo
Feb 3rd 2014 at 8:11:44 AM

So, if there was a law that would ban homosexuals from adopting, would you support it?

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Feb 3rd 2014 at 8:12:38 AM

Yes, because I believe that even if you are outside biblical morality, then there are good reasons to not allow homosexual couples to adopt.

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros
Cleric of Banjo
Feb 3rd 2014 at 8:13:26 AM

Well, thanks for being honest about your bigotry I guess...

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Elfive not sure this one's actually a skull, but w/e from London
not sure this one's actually a skull, but w/e
Feb 3rd 2014 at 8:13:57 AM

I think what he's actually doing is putting people's opinions above everything else.

Going back to what Madrugada said, I don't think we were avoiding the question of why they shouldn't do it by jumping to "They're wrong and horrible for believing that." I think we jumped to that because, quite honestly, that's what most of us think the answer is.

edited 3rd Feb '14 8:16:21 AM by Elfive

I stopped worrying about strange men on the internet around the time I became one.
Madrugada MOD Zzzzzzzzzz Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
Feb 3rd 2014 at 8:14:02 AM

Morgikit "But why do you believe that" is precisely the pureed horse I was talking about. That question has been asked and answered innumerable times in this thread and in others by several different people. You don't find their reasons convincing. That's fine, you don't have to. But asking it over and over again won't change the answer, or make it more convincing to you or less sufficient for them.

So, Quit Asking It!

edited 3rd Feb '14 8:14:54 AM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
Feb 3rd 2014 at 8:16:48 AM

They were looking at the relationships that a kids parents had and found almost all of the homosexual ones were broken.
Since homosexual couples cannot adopt children, the only children living with sam-sex parents are those of previous relationships. They can only adequately be compared to those children whos heterosexual parents had a divorce. And lo and behold the statistics are similar.

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros
Cleric of Banjo
Feb 3rd 2014 at 8:18:23 AM

Again, I skipped some posts, but in the study had none of the homosexual parents adopted?

Because I'm pretty sure that homosexuals can adopt in many (most?) places in the U.S. (not sure if true at the time of the study though).

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
DrStarky Okay Guy from Corn And Pig Land Relationship Status: Staying up all night to get lucky
Okay Guy
Feb 3rd 2014 at 8:18:31 AM

Adoption agencies should not have 100% control of their standards in all cases. Not everything needs to be left a matter of opinion.

If they're denying children loving, stable parents based on arbitrary reasons, like orientation or race, then they care more about their own personal biases than giving children homes and should be stopped.

Put me in motion, drink the potion, use the lotion, drain the ocean, cause commotion, fake devotion, entertain a notion, be Nova Scotian
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
Feb 3rd 2014 at 8:21:02 AM

(I'm going to get hell for this.) If a private adoption agency believes that mixed race couples are not suitable, then they should not have to place kids with mixed race couples.

Kudos to you for at least having the intellectual courage to follow your logic to it's conclusion.

That would seem a fairly libertarian viewpoint, which in essence places adoption entirely in the hands of the private sector and all it's prejudices. But if you accept that there is a place for state oversight of adoption, which I do, to ensure the suitability of potential adopters and the happiness of adoptees, then there would seem also to be a duty incumbent on the state to refuse to license adoption agencies whose principles inflict substantive harm on their charges and on society as a whole. There's a fairly obvious public policy interest in not permitting children to be given to the care of people who, presumably, are white supremacists. Now, attempting to enforce that against the public at large couldn't be done without being highly illiberal. But for those persons who are already in the state's care, then, by contrast, it is a moral duty.

If you don't accept that the state has any place in adoption, then we're outside the remit of this thread, my simple answer would be "you're wrong", and I'm happy to continue that debate in another.

Something that seems to have escaped a lot of the people debating here, including me, is that, in the link Caissas shared that started this discussion, the Scottish government didn't try to forcibly shut down Catholic adoption agencies; rather the Scottish government refused to certify them as charities and thus let them off the tax hook, unless they considered placing children with same-sex couples. Rather than do so, the adoption agencies said they would shut down. So it's less "Catholic adoption agencies saved from the government", it's "Catholic adoption agencies saved from having to commit hara-kiri rather than take LGBT people".

edited 3rd Feb '14 8:21:28 AM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
Feb 3rd 2014 at 8:23:50 AM

If a private adoption agency believes that mixed race couples are not suitable, then they should not have to place kids with mixed race couples.

I assume that this applies across the board? An adoption agency that believes Christian couples are not suitable should also be allowed to deny them such placements.

This doesn't seem to be you having anything against LGBT people (for once) but that you appear to think that there should be no limit on adoption agencies only placing kids with people they like for their own bigoted reason. If I'm right, then can I ask why on earth do you believe this?

Edit: [up] Yeah, so it's not even "shut down or place kids with gays" it's "if you're not gonna place kids with gays than you're gonna have to pay taxes". It's not about morality, it's about money.

edited 3rd Feb '14 8:26:21 AM by Silasw

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
KingNick1995 from Somewhere over the waynebow Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
Feb 3rd 2014 at 8:25:55 AM

So they are so tightly held to their beliefs that they would rather self shut down just to avoid coming in conflict with their beliefs?

[up] That's worse

edited 3rd Feb '14 8:27:49 AM by KingNick1995

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