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Discussion of religion in the context of LGBT rights is only allowed in this thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBT rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

edited 4th Oct '13 8:26:43 AM by Madrugada

Jhimmibhob from Where the tea is sweet, and the cornbread ain't Relationship Status: My own grandpa
Nov 11th 2013 at 8:09:55 PM

[up]Sure! Now, I wouldn't bet cash money on the hierarchy's quivering in its boots or anything ... but they largely seem to think people should be free to take their best shots.

"She was the kind of dame they write similes about." —Pterodactyl Jones
deathpigeon Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
Nov 11th 2013 at 8:10:10 PM

And what are the churches reasons to insist on sex only in a stable relationship?

Because they believe that leads to healthier and more blessed relationships and that leads to more stability and a better culture?

I mean, I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean that there is only one explanation.

Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest
NOT THE BEES
Nov 11th 2013 at 8:24:53 PM

And as for priests remaining celibate, the idea is that raising a family of their own can split their time and loyalties from running the church. While I don't agree with the extreme they demand and think it fosters more isolation than dedication in practice, I can understand the reasoning.

edited 11th Nov '13 8:25:38 PM by Pykrete

RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse
scratching at .8, just hopin'
Nov 12th 2013 at 12:03:21 AM

I still don't see how the Catholic Church can say marriage can be a good thing "for unitive purposes", justified by human-to-human interaction and all that great stuff, and not include homosexual union in fulfilling those purposes without extremely as-hoc reasoning.

If you're going to slam a religion at least base your slams on correct information. Better yet, don't slam religion at all.
̣__ó This is the sort of thing that makes me think that open atheists are unwelcome on OTC.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
Elfive not sure this one's actually a skull, but w/e from London
not sure this one's actually a skull, but w/e
Nov 12th 2013 at 12:27:55 AM

We don't slam religion, we just calmly point out when it's wrong.

I stopped worrying about strange men on the internet around the time I became one.
Nov 12th 2013 at 4:44:47 AM

that leads to healthier and more blessed relationships and that leads to more stability and a better culture[
Even if true. Why ban casual sex? You could have both. Sex in a relationship and out of it, just for fun. Just because there's healthier food doesn't mean you cannot eat fast food from time to time. Just don't restrict yourself to fast food. And shouldn't they be in favor of same-sex marriages then? Why do they say homosexual people have to live in chastity instead of a stable relationship with sex (which is supposed to be good for other reasons, remember)? They won't be making babies either way.

Like Radical Taoist said, why are they against same-sex marriage if they are for stable relationships without children? Why are they against the use of contraception? Why is casual sex bad? Why is chastity regarded as a moral virtue? There's only one explanation for that: No babies, no sex.

edited 12th Nov '13 4:45:48 AM by Antiteilchen

Nov 12th 2013 at 6:01:31 AM

"Why ban casual sex?"

For me, personally, I've seen too many people get hurt from it. Then when I talk to other people, I find that is what they see too.

Dr. Neil Clark Warren of eHarmony, who has heard this numerous times says, "we know from our own studies that sexual involvement prior to a committed relationship of two persons who have vowed to remain faithful to each other for a lifetime always turns out to be problematical. When you get sexually involved with another person, you become highly dependent on them. You become deeply involved at the most profound levels of your being. It is as though your psyche, your soul, your body, becomes totally interrelated with the other person's psyche, soul, and body, such that the two of you really are bonded on the most fundamental level possible." As soon as there is sexual involvement before marriage, the decision to get married becomes a foregone conclusion. "In other words, the sexual bonding caused them to assume that the decision about getting married had already been made. I believe that sexual bonding often takes place far before intercourse," says Dr. Warren.

"The truth is that wherever a man lies with a woman, there, whether they like it or not, a transcendental relation is set up between them which must be eternally enjoyed or eternally endured." C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters

edited 12th Nov '13 6:03:42 AM by Soban

Elfive not sure this one's actually a skull, but w/e from London
not sure this one's actually a skull, but w/e
Nov 12th 2013 at 6:03:56 AM

If that's true, explain Divorce.

I stopped worrying about strange men on the internet around the time I became one.
Nov 12th 2013 at 6:09:50 AM

[up][up]"Always turns out to be problematical"... forgetting the relationships that fall down when the partners aren't sexually compatible with differing needs and drives. If they find this out a little late and/or things change over time, it can throw a right spanner in the works. <_< Not all partnerships can survive this, even if they make a go at trying to. sad

So, yeah. Right. tongue There are arguments for and against: it's basically down to personal and cultural opinion. Yes, promiscuity can lead to STDs and all the emotional wreckage people like to point at. But, not experimenting a little before legal commitment also has problems attached.

And, arguing against gay marriage? Is not allowing gay couples the solid, legal commitment a grounded relationship should have that helps prevent promiscuity. So... it's a dud argument, as far as I'm concerned.

Gays just can't be monogamous or have meaningful relationships... because we won't let 'em marry and prove it because they just can't because it's wrong! Circular reasoning at it's best. tongue Never mind the number of heterosexual relationships that go belly-up because either one of the partners (or both) screw it up and play the field. <_<

I'm sorry, Soban: people are fallible because of being people and making laws expecting the "perfection" to be standard just cause pain in practice. If you restrict people from being able to have stability in their lives, you can't then turn around and say "it would never be a proper relationship, anyway". <_< Because how the sodding hell do you know that if you don't let them try?

edited 12th Nov '13 6:17:34 AM by Euodiachloris

Morgikit Mikon :3 from War Drobe, Spare Oom Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Mikon :3
Nov 12th 2013 at 6:13:47 AM

What if you're in a committed relationship with multiple people?

Elfive not sure this one's actually a skull, but w/e from London
not sure this one's actually a skull, but w/e
Nov 12th 2013 at 6:24:15 AM

Truly, by outlawing bigamy we are undermining the foundations of what could be a stable and fulfilling relationship(s).

I stopped worrying about strange men on the internet around the time I became one.
tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Never Trust
Nov 12th 2013 at 6:33:43 AM

[up]x5 So people get hurt. What makes it anyone's business but their own?

edited 12th Nov '13 6:33:57 AM by tricksterson

Trump delenda est
Nov 12th 2013 at 6:40:35 AM

As soon as there is sexual involvement before marriage, the decision to get married becomes a foregone conclusion.
[lol] Because prostitutes, one night stands, fuck buddies etc. are ompletely unheard of. And people in committed relationship never get hurt.

[up][up] Why stop at bigamy?

Elfive not sure this one's actually a skull, but w/e from London
not sure this one's actually a skull, but w/e
Nov 12th 2013 at 6:48:59 AM

Because I think technically only bigamy is specifically illegal, given that to have three spouses you need to also have two.

I stopped worrying about strange men on the internet around the time I became one.
Morgikit Mikon :3 from War Drobe, Spare Oom Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Mikon :3
Nov 12th 2013 at 7:01:53 AM

Sorry. Forgot we're not supposed to talk about polyamorous relationships except in the designated thread that doesn't get used.

ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Nov 12th 2013 at 7:02:05 AM

Bigamy is illegal for the same reason bumsex in the bible is illegal — in modern times at least, bigamy has mostly been a vehicle for abuse, and to stop that we've decided to make it illegal.

Nov 12th 2013 at 7:03:30 AM

@Morgikit, for that we go into personal fannon that divides sharply from what my church teaches. I can talk about it, but it's a minority of one who believes it.

@Antiteilchen, 1 Cor 6:15-16 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.

edited 12th Nov '13 7:04:11 AM by Soban

Nov 12th 2013 at 7:06:09 AM

[up][up][up][up]Isn't it defined by exlusiveness? If you're married to one person you cannot marry another one. If you ditch that you have polygamy. I misunderstood your statement as it's alowed to marry two people but not more. If just bigamy was alowed though, people could form "marriage circles". A marries B and C. B is married to A and D; C is married to A and E. D is married to B and A. grin

[up]Wierd. Aren't prostitutes also part of the body of Christ? What differents makes it if you unite with prostitute-Christ instead of spouse-Christ?

edited 12th Nov '13 7:10:59 AM by Antiteilchen

LMage Scion of the Dragon from Miss Robichaux's Academy Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Scion of the Dragon
Nov 12th 2013 at 7:07:36 AM

[up][up]

Isn't that more then a little insulting to prostitutes? And more then a little bit of slut shamming?

I mean, what are they doing wrong exactly?

edited 12th Nov '13 7:07:48 AM by LMage

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"
Morgikit Mikon :3 from War Drobe, Spare Oom Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Mikon :3
Nov 12th 2013 at 7:10:32 AM

Cats: By that logic, welfare should be illegal because of the minority of people who abuse it. Cars should be banned because of reckless driving and road rage. And don't get me started on the Internet, guns, money, etc.

Elfive not sure this one's actually a skull, but w/e from London
not sure this one's actually a skull, but w/e
Nov 12th 2013 at 7:10:54 AM

Doesn't that mean the prostitute is Christ already? If so, what would the harm be in joining Christ with something he already is?

[up][up][up]I dunno, I'm not all that current with US laws.

edited 12th Nov '13 7:12:33 AM by Elfive

I stopped worrying about strange men on the internet around the time I became one.
Nov 12th 2013 at 7:12:46 AM

I can only speak for my own experience, but as a monogamous person in a relationship with a polyamorous person, my relationship is the exact opposite of abusive. I consider it to be one of the best things to ever happen to me. He makes me happy, and if multiple partners are what make him happy then by God I'm going to accept that.

Morgikit Mikon :3 from War Drobe, Spare Oom Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Mikon :3
Nov 12th 2013 at 7:15:28 AM

Found it. Let's move this subject there, maybe?

Nov 12th 2013 at 7:25:37 AM

@soban: call me skeptical of anything said by the founder of Eharmony given his site specifically refuses to cater to LGBT relationships.

well, that, and because in my own experience, no website can possibly make me any more or less dateable given thats like multiplying by zero

edited 12th Nov '13 7:26:25 AM by midgetsnowman

Nov 12th 2013 at 7:27:56 AM

"Citation, please. You specifically said "Catholic". Please cite any official document of the Catholic Church you can find that states "All sex that isn't for making babies is evil"."

- Considering how omnipresent it is in rhetoric, I'm sincerily baffled.

- You seem to implicate a No True Scotsman here. I suppose the american catholic church is not catholic, then, though I am hardly pressed to disgree with your sayings.

"This is the sort of thing that makes me think that open atheists are unwelcome on OTC."

Not just atheists, mind you, anyone who disagrees with a horrid aspect of a religion. I find it ironic how criticising Catholicism is "bad", but prommoting opression and discrimination somehow is not.

edited 12th Nov '13 7:30:32 AM by peryton


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