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Discussion of religion in the context of LGBTQ+ rights is only allowed in this thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBTQ+ rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

Edited by Mrph1 on Dec 1st 2023 at 6:52:14 PM

Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#9976: Mar 11th 2013 at 2:16:31 PM

even I shudder at the thought of what the Germans might've accomplished if they'd gotten all their lebensraum.

The horror is unimaginable, but this quotation from Hugh Trevor-Roper sums it up:

The hundred million self-confident German masters were to be brutally installed in Europe, and secured in power by a monopoly of technical civilization and the slave-labor of a dwindling native population of neglected, diseased, illiterate cretins, in order that they might have leisure to buzz along infinite Autonbahnen, admire the Strength-Through-Joy Hostel, the Party Headquarters, the Military Museum and the Planetarium which the Fuhrer would have built in Linz (his new Hitleropolis), trot round local picture galleries, and listen over their cream buns to endless recordings of The Merry Widow. This was to be the German Millenium, from which even the imagination was to have no means of escape.

edited 11th Mar '13 2:20:05 PM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#9977: Mar 11th 2013 at 2:19:39 PM

Starship: I don't think Fred Phelps would ever shed a single tear for Matthew Shepard no.

All this talk of the Nazis crimes, both the ones they committed and the ones they were plotting to commit.

And yet....this quoteblocked statement is the one that strikes the most fear in me.

It was an honor
kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#9978: Mar 11th 2013 at 2:23:13 PM

You seem surprised. I mean, come on! Do you think those whacky WBC people feel bad for the people they badmouth on their funerals? XD

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#9979: Mar 11th 2013 at 2:26:01 PM

You really think so?? That some people could look at the literal dead bodies of gays that do nothing other than sleep with somebody and just.....not care?

Need I remind you of the evangelicals who endorsed the Ugandan 'Kill the Gays' bill?

What's precedent ever done for us?
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#9980: Mar 11th 2013 at 2:29:38 PM

I.....find it difficult to bring myself to believe that these people aren't simply blinded by righteous dogma. That if they read about that lady who had people break into her home and mutilate her body, they'd see reason.

(Sigh) Maybe I just don't want to believe American citizens, God-fearing people (allegedly) could care so little about another human being.

It was an honor
kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#9981: Mar 11th 2013 at 2:32:45 PM

But they're not normal people, they're just gays! You know, those crazy people with mental defects. Their existence is an insult already!

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#9982: Mar 11th 2013 at 2:35:33 PM

[up] Thank you for making me laugh Kay. But this reaffirms my belief that we true Christians have a sworn obligation to stop these people once and for all.

But the question I'd never really thought of till now is....what if they won't change? Won't if they don't surrender?

I mean, if they can't be reasoned with, then truly the only other option is.....complete eradication.

It was an honor
Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#9983: Mar 11th 2013 at 2:46:55 PM

Not complete eradication. Just complete eradication of their power. Men like Phelps and the murders who justify themselves with "they were gay" don't deserve power, authority, or having their ideas taken seriously by anyone. If we can convince enough people that he and his ilk are idiots and evil than and as long as we take adequate measures to protect ourselves then they will just be a bunch of idiots shouting at the air only to be faced with "Nothing to see here move along".

Starship I'd like to believe they were just blinded by Dogma and on some level they are sorry for what they've done. But given how they've justified themselves to the press I can't believe it. It is a horrifying thought that people can be monsters. It seems that way though.

Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#9984: Mar 11th 2013 at 2:49:18 PM

To quote Christopher Hitchens (as I am wont to do): "People like that should be out in the street shouting and hollering, with a carboard sign and selling pencils from a cup."

That the position I would like to see Phelps and the homophobic churches reduced to in US society.

Schild und Schwert der Partei
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#9985: Mar 11th 2013 at 2:54:47 PM

[up][up] Good point.

It was an honor
Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#9986: Mar 11th 2013 at 3:09:34 PM

On a different note how do we stop with the needless metaphor censorship? While things like the Legacy Virus X-men Storyline and the TNG episode The Outcast are well intentioned the run the risk of being lost in metaphor or the far worse option of making it look like you support the opposite side. In TNG it seemed more like it was One woman's struggle to bone a man in the face of lesbian zealots, (would say the real line but I'm not sure how okay you all are with the vulgarity of Cracked.com).

edited 11th Mar '13 3:11:00 PM by Wildcard

Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#9987: Mar 11th 2013 at 3:12:26 PM

One idea put forward by David Brin (yeah, he's a sci-fi author. But he's also a Real Life scientist, and he has a lot of ideas I personally find interesting), and that I found quite convincing, is that WBC and similar phenomena are better understood if one considers them instances of addiction.

Just as one can become addicted to various substances, or to gambling, one can also become addicted to righteous indignation — to the feeling that you are pure and in the right and everyone else is a filthy, evil, morally corrupted wretch. That feels good, and it is self-reinforcing: the more you see reality in that way, the more reasons you will find to keep seeing it in that way, and the better it will feel for you to be the only bastion of righteousness in a sea of awful semi-humans.

Perhaps, by now, Phelps and the others like him have no more control on their behaviour than a last-stage alcoholic or a gambling addict do. They got caught up, perhaps beyond their capabilities of even noticing that, in their cycle of self-satisfied denouncing of the evil of the rest of the world, and in the thrill that they get out of it.

edited 11th Mar '13 3:19:32 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
pagad Sneering Imperialist from perfidious Albion Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Sneering Imperialist
#9988: Mar 11th 2013 at 3:15:58 PM

Look, the Phelpses and the WBC are horrible people who say horrible things. But they have never physically harmed a human being for being gay.

I'll take a million Fred Phelpses over one Adolf Hitler.

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.
Haldo Indecisive pumpkin from Never never land Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
Indecisive pumpkin
#9989: Mar 11th 2013 at 3:16:40 PM

My intention is just to wait them out. The more time passes, the older the majority of irreversible homophobes get, the easier it is to overpower them.

[up]But they don't bat an eye when others do so.

edited 11th Mar '13 3:17:36 PM by Haldo

‽‽‽‽ ^These are interrobangs. Love them. Learn them. Use them.
Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#9990: Mar 11th 2013 at 3:17:18 PM

[up][up]I agree but that doesn't mean he isn't part of the problem.'

@Carc: I think you are missing half of your last sentence.

edited 11th Mar '13 3:18:22 PM by Wildcard

Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#9991: Mar 11th 2013 at 3:26:04 PM

Look, the Phelpses and the WBC are horrible people who say horrible things. But they have never physically harmed a human being for being gay.

I'll take a million Fred Phelpses over one Adolf Hitler.

Hitlers do not arise out of thin air, though.

Hitler exploited the elements of antisemitism that were already present in Europe at the time — and of whose existence, as an aside, the Catholic Church is not innocent. Doubtlessly many of the people who contributed to spread such abhorrent ideas did not physically harm a human being for being Jewish, and perhaps many of them would never have done that even if they had been given the opportunity; but still, they contributed to setting up the justification for Hitler's actions.

Similarly, even in Phelphs never physically hurt people for being gay, he certainly contributes to a cultural environment in which people harassing and hurting people for their sexuality is permissible.

[up]I think I forgot one "got", it should be OK now. I think.

edited 11th Mar '13 3:28:47 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#9992: Mar 11th 2013 at 3:28:25 PM

Whoops it just looked like you forgot the "In their indignation they did not notice they had become amongst America's most hated people" or something like that. But I looked back up again and it wasn't what you were trying to say.

edited 11th Mar '13 3:28:49 PM by Wildcard

Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#9993: Mar 11th 2013 at 3:30:13 PM

No worries, it's not a very well-written sentence. I should probably rewrite it, but it's getting kind of late.

G'night!

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
Haldo Indecisive pumpkin from Never never land Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
Indecisive pumpkin
#9994: Mar 11th 2013 at 3:34:18 PM

Similarly, even in Phelphs never physically hurt people for being gay, he certainly contributes to a cultural environment in which people harassing and hurting people for their sexuality is permissible.
QFT

‽‽‽‽ ^These are interrobangs. Love them. Learn them. Use them.
Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#9995: Mar 11th 2013 at 4:16:18 PM

Maybe we can have more gay representation in the media if authors make main characters be gay, but don't make their whole role in the show revolve around it. Why can't the best pilot in the galaxy also be gay? Though authors should follow the rule of don't have your character defined by a single trait in general this seems to be a big problem with what examples we do have.

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#9996: Mar 11th 2013 at 4:20:04 PM

I'm familiar with the Honor Harrington books, so I know of David Brin. The idea of religious zealotry as an addiction is a rather intriguing idea. Any further data on the subject.

Re: Phelps vs. Hitler - Completely agreed with Pagad. One could say Hitler didn't phyisically gun down 6 million people either.

We are all responsible for our sins of commission and omission. While Phelps's crimes and Hitler's aren't remotely comparable, it is also impossible to absolve him of his contributions to the misery gays suffer in this country.

It was an honor
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#9997: Mar 11th 2013 at 4:22:38 PM

[up]Harrington was by David Weber, not Brin. Brin did Uplift, IIRC.

What's precedent ever done for us?
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#9998: Mar 11th 2013 at 4:26:49 PM

[up] Holy Critical Research Failure Batman. (smacks head)

It was an honor
Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#9999: Mar 11th 2013 at 8:01:13 PM

Addiction to righteous indignation is probably something that many people have.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#10000: Mar 11th 2013 at 9:21:30 PM

As an American, I feel really weird that I haven't heard of Fred Phelps until now.


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