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Discussion of religion in the context of LGBTQ+ rights is only allowed in this thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBTQ+ rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

Edited by Mrph1 on Dec 1st 2023 at 6:52:14 PM

Lascoden ... from Missouri, USA Since: Nov, 2012
...
#9176: Feb 24th 2013 at 6:13:24 PM

[up][up]That seems to be what Exodus International is reorganizing itself as. It's becoming purely behavioral, since they admitted that they can't affect orientation. I believe it's separate because they have the added program of teaching the subjects that they Can't Have Sex, Ever unlike heterosexuals. Note that this has made them somewhat of a pariah amongst the "ex-gay movement", since many of them believe that they can affect orientation.

boop
kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#9177: Feb 24th 2013 at 6:17:50 PM

Sigh, this makes me wish the idiots who wrote all the "homosexuality is a sin because lol" crap in the bible had never existed. :/

Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#9178: Feb 24th 2013 at 6:37:14 PM

@kay4today: Who knows if they did? The Bible could have been made hundreds of years after the fact by different people who thought of homosexuality as a sin. Records from back then suck.

On the bright side it at least seems like it has been getting better in a couple places despite all the extremists who want to strike down the sinners.

edited 24th Feb '13 6:37:34 PM by Wildcard

kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#9180: Feb 24th 2013 at 6:39:05 PM

Someone had to write it in there. xD

[up] Eh, the bible pretty clearly says it's a sin. But I'll read this nonetheless.

edited 24th Feb '13 6:39:39 PM by kay4today

Matues Since: Sep, 2011
#9181: Feb 24th 2013 at 6:42:59 PM

Exodus International reaches out to students.

...

That is the worst possible thing to put someone who's already a raging sack of hormones through.

Damnit world. Why?

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#9182: Feb 24th 2013 at 6:46:26 PM

Which post are you referring to Shima?

It was an honor
kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#9183: Feb 24th 2013 at 6:47:39 PM

[up][up] Because evil must be terminated!

Matues Since: Sep, 2011
#9184: Feb 24th 2013 at 6:47:54 PM

[up][up]

This one, perhaps?

Comparing this to other therapies that modify behaviour, the one we have the most research on is alcoholism. One of the first steps in recovery to alcoholism is realising that there is no cure, and you'll always be an alcoholic. Likewise a gay person would realise they're gay and that they'll always be gay and nothing can change that.

Based on that fact, trying to be in a heterosexual relationship is really unfair to your partner. There's strife in a marriage when one party isn't attracted to the other one. You can make it work, but you'll never be truly happy and that can poison a relationship and really fuck up whatever children result. In addition there's a huge risk of divorce. No spouse deserves that.

That leaves remaining celibate and unloved and that's just cruel. Since you're basically telling someone they need to come to terms with the fact that they're not allowed to love and be loved. And that is railed against in the Bible far more than homosexuality.

That's why any sort of therapy on this is a bad idea. We know the limits of this sort of thing. And just telling someone they can't love is terrible.

edited 24th Feb '13 6:48:03 PM by Matues

Lascoden ... from Missouri, USA Since: Nov, 2012
...
#9185: Feb 24th 2013 at 6:53:10 PM

Exodus International is in charge of the "Day of Dialogue", a student-led event in counter of the Day of Silence.

boop
Matues Since: Sep, 2011
#9186: Feb 24th 2013 at 6:56:41 PM

...

They've gone from "People with different opinions" to "People like Westboro Baptist Church" in my mind now.

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#9187: Feb 24th 2013 at 6:57:55 PM

Ah, yes.

Well what can I say? We've been through this several times. We seem to be in agreement on this statement "Sexual orientation is likely a part of your psyche you have little choice in forming." From that point we seem to veer off.

If you take the view of homosexuality as any other inclination, or preference, then it would seem to me it can be adjusted, toggled, or to use a better metaphor, overwritten with another.

Where we diverge further is that even if you can't affect your predispositions altogether, you most certainly can learn to change your behavior and no, you will not drop dead of your brain overheating from resisting it's natural impulses.

Each side has it's sources, charts, graphs, and links and will likely handwave any research or example that calls otherwise. For my part, I believe my stance is consistent with everything we know about the human mind and how it works.

It was an honor
Lascoden ... from Missouri, USA Since: Nov, 2012
...
#9188: Feb 24th 2013 at 7:03:12 PM

[up]What exactly do you mean by "overwritten"?

Edit: Also, what inclinations can you "toggle"?

edited 24th Feb '13 7:03:54 PM by Lascoden

boop
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#9189: Feb 24th 2013 at 7:06:13 PM

But you can really only change your behaviour to celibate. If you involve someone else in your self delusion you're only hurting them and poisoning your relationship. Would you like your daughter to marry an ex-gay? It's not a healthy start for a relationship.

That leaves them with the soul option of never loving anyone at all, and that's a huge thing to ask of someone. How can you deny someone love and call that anything other than a sin to do that to them? How can you fly in the face of everything the Bible says and tell a whole class of people that they don't deserve to love and be loved?

Even if you can change behaviour, you can't change the emotion and their attractions. You can't change who it's possible for them to fall in love with. Instead you reduce their possible relationships to merely sex they don't particularly enjoy and that's horribly toxic.

edited 24th Feb '13 7:08:18 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Lascoden ... from Missouri, USA Since: Nov, 2012
...
#9190: Feb 24th 2013 at 7:16:54 PM

@Matues: Oops, I made a mistake there. They used to handle the Day of Dialogue, back when it was called the Day of Truth. They took over after the ADF dropped it, then they dropped support in 2011. Focus on the Family is the group that now runs it, renaming it Day of Dialogue. Sorry about that.

edited 24th Feb '13 7:17:25 PM by Lascoden

boop
kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#9191: Feb 24th 2013 at 7:22:35 PM

Why should a homosexual change him/herself? Why should we even bring it up to them?

[up] T'was an interesting link you posted earlier. Although I'm not sure I really get everything.

edited 24th Feb '13 7:23:17 PM by kay4today

Lascoden ... from Missouri, USA Since: Nov, 2012
...
#9192: Feb 24th 2013 at 7:34:16 PM

[up]In a nutshell, he's basically saying that modern translators fail to take into account the culture at the time the bible was written. Add the fact that Archaic Hebrew has multiple meanings for every word, depending on the context. He also did an analysis, on the same site, on the often-cited passage in Romans, of Paul's trip through the city.

boop
Matues Since: Sep, 2011
#9193: Feb 24th 2013 at 8:06:03 PM

[up]

Maxima's seen -and- rejected that argument already on the basis that not every solitary theologian supports that view.

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#9194: Feb 24th 2013 at 8:24:54 PM

I've noticed that my views are presented less-nuanced than they actually are oftentimes, and while I don't like semantic dancing, this sometimes renders my views as functionally different from how I actually think. I don't reject it because "not every solitary theologian supports that view," and I'm getting slightly aggravated at that oft-repeated assertion.

I reject it because after reviewing the evidence presented, which I do in each and every instance, I see more supposition than objective truth. I've asked where are the copies of the Bible which have these different interpretations, and none have been proffered. I've pointed out the Wikipedia articles which clearly state their is no proof the text is functionally different, even though, yes, the words and language have evolved over time. And I've pointed out there's a significant number of trained scholars who know more about this than us who don't believe in these erroneous translations.

I don't mind being perceived as arrogant, insane, or evil. But I will ask that my views be presented accurately, or not at all.

It was an honor
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#9195: Feb 24th 2013 at 8:31:31 PM

You're still dodging my comments, Starship.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#9196: Feb 24th 2013 at 8:43:46 PM

I ask you (in general) to refrain from the term "dodging". I don't dodge, and I rarely ignore comments. If someone says something to which I have no ready rejoinder, I'll say so.

To you specifically Shima, I'm not as quick responding to your comments because of a number of reasons. First off, we've covered this territory before; not just overall in the thread, but you and I in particular. I've expressed my beliefs before and there are times when I'm not quite up to rehashing them. Additionally, I recognize that sometimes I need to step away from these discussions and go browse something else. As Silasw, yourself, Polar, and others have pointed out, I do get angry at some of the behavior and conduct of people in these discussions. However, if I blow up, then of course, I'm the bad guy. I'm trying to pace myself to avoid such blow ups.

Lastly, with some posts, I take extra time to chew it over and post an appropriate response. I was actually in the middle of drafting out a response, I just haven't finished yet.

It was an honor
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#9197: Feb 24th 2013 at 8:44:54 PM

All right, I'll wait. I just wanted to make sure that they weren't missed.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#9198: Feb 24th 2013 at 8:51:36 PM

Starship confirmed for sucking at Dodgeball.

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#9199: Feb 24th 2013 at 9:05:56 PM

@Shima - Well, much of my response to your post is stuff I've said already. You believe the only change you can effect in sexual behavior is being celibate. I don't, especially since the mechanics of a sex addict learning to celibate is a such a similar process anyway.

You also look at it as damning people to be alone and not be worthy of love. I look at is "Yes, you deserve to be happy and loved and you damn sure deserve to have amazing sex. However, doing God's will is a higher goal than that, and you should strive to meet it; understanding that God has the power to grant you what you seek, i.e. love and fantastic sex." It's a similar idea to a sex addict believing that he must have a constant diet of sexual conquests, but instead learning to trust that contrary to the whole "sex with one person gets boring fast" idea, a God-mandated monogamous relationship can be BETTER than a sex with a string of hot women (or men).

"Starship, these fairy tales of yours get more insipid with each following one." Perhaps. But, it's what I believe.

Now, this struck a chord withe me

Would you like your daughter to marry an ex-gay? It's not a healthy start for a relationship.
.

I vehemently disagree with you; and I find your question invalid. I want my daughter to marry a man who loves God, as he loves her, as he loves his fellow man, as he loves himself. That's ALL I want. I could give two shits about what, and who, he did previously. I'd thank God every day for having the generosity to bless my daughter with such a man, and blessing me with such a son-in-law.

You see Shima, your question speaks to the very essence of our faith. The reason I can look at my daughter's fiancee and ignore the fact he was once married to a man, is because I can ignore my own misdeeds in light of who I am today.NOTE

I can believe in that ex-gay because I can believe in an ex-borderline-homophobe; such as myself.

Shima, we won't agree on this because the very point of my faith is that ANYONE can learn to overcome any part of their nature. That God built us just so, unlike the animals, we could choose our fate.

I'm not so aloof that I don't realize this may come off as a self-comforting lie and a convenient illusion. It's worked for me, it's worked for others I know, and I believe it can work for any who believe it and are prepared to pay the necessary price.

[up]Yeah, I suck now. But wait till I complete dodgeball therapy....

edited 24th Feb '13 9:21:23 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#9200: Feb 24th 2013 at 9:09:46 PM

The reason I can look at my daughter's fiancee and ignore the fact he was once married to a man, is because I can ignore my own misdeeds in light of who I am today.

Yet you can't ignore your daughter being together with another a girl, in spite of your misdeeds. Interesting.

(Calling someone being together with one of the same gender a "misdeed" is bloody ridiculous anyway, but I'm not even going to touch that)

[up] What worked for you? Applying common sense to your brain? Not the same in the least.

edited 24th Feb '13 9:12:23 PM by kay4today


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