TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion

Go To

Discussion of religion in the context of LGBTQ+ rights is only allowed in this thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBTQ+ rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

Edited by Mrph1 on Dec 1st 2023 at 6:52:14 PM

Haldo Indecisive pumpkin from Never never land Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
Indecisive pumpkin
#9151: Feb 24th 2013 at 10:53:27 AM

First of all, again, no matter how much you (not you, I mean generally) handwave the number of people who declare themselves ex-gay away, the truth is they exist.
The problem with this argument is that anecdotes =/= evidence (and anecdotes most definitely =/= proof). On the other side of the argument, there are also many cases of people who have gone through "reparative" therapy in earnest and come out just the same, but those, too, are only anecdotes. They can't be used as proof.

Second, we have seen success of behavioral adjustment being conclusively successful across a number of areas, in spite of whatever factors may have led the person to that point that they didn't control. You can call my diet parallel "asinine" but the fact is, other than personal opinion, the facts are what they are.
That's behavioral, though. It's not internal. Also, I'm gonna need to see some sources.

‽‽‽‽ ^These are interrobangs. Love them. Learn them. Use them.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#9152: Feb 24th 2013 at 10:56:30 AM

Kay, you joke, but there are actual are therapies to get folks who struggle with being sluts, like myself, to be celibate. You don't hear about those because they don't touch on any controversy.

@Haldo - True.

It was an honor
kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#9153: Feb 24th 2013 at 10:57:39 AM

No, I'm not joking. You're saying there should be conversion therapy for gays, so why not the same for straight people? >:P

edited 24th Feb '13 10:57:59 AM by kay4today

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#9154: Feb 24th 2013 at 11:10:30 AM

Actually, you do hear about therapy for sex addiction, and there's a growing school of thought that it's not healthy either. There's mounting evidence that it's the demonizing of sex in the culture and people being made to feel guilty for wanting to act on their natural sexual urges that's the root of the issue. Basically if people stopped trying to press oppressive morality on sex, people's lives and relationships would be much healthier.

It may even be to blame for the growing divorce rate because it makes it hard to talk about your sexual desires even with your spouse. People are getting divorced because they're sexually incompatible and the slut shaming in this culture means that there's no way to really work through it. If one partner cuts off sex in the relationship, the other really has no recourse and culturally they aren't allowed to complain about it. As a result, it's breaking apart families.

edited 24th Feb '13 11:11:24 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Morgikit Mikon :3 from War Drobe, Spare Oom Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Mikon :3
#9155: Feb 24th 2013 at 11:47:10 AM

Silly Kay, there's no ex-straight therapy because straight people are normal, unlike you and me.

kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#9156: Feb 24th 2013 at 11:58:32 AM

But what can I do to be normal?! :V

Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#9157: Feb 24th 2013 at 12:00:33 PM

Plus the whole ex-gay or ex-straight thing may or may not be bullshit. Not because of anything they said, but it is possible that they are sexually confused. Sorry for the semantic argument but this is exactly what I'm trying to get across. I honestly don't think there is a such thing as ex-gay or ex-straight person or even ex-sexual, (now asexual used to be sexual.) (Is there a real word for that because that sounds like a fetish for your Exs)(I'm not taking about calibrate I mean with no desire).

If you were asexual you always were, even if you try to love or crave sex you can't fake it too yourself. Now matter how Ship chooses to express himself I doubt he could force himself to find guys more attractive than women.

edited 24th Feb '13 12:00:54 PM by Wildcard

kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#9158: Feb 24th 2013 at 12:03:42 PM

Yeah, I agree. A gay person suddenly finding out that he finds the opposite gender attractive after all never was gay in my eyes.

Morgikit Mikon :3 from War Drobe, Spare Oom Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Mikon :3
#9159: Feb 24th 2013 at 12:08:48 PM

Indeed. I'm sure plenty of gay people grew up thinking they were straight. I was in college when I realized bisexuality was a thing.

Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#9160: Feb 24th 2013 at 12:10:34 PM

I know Ship already said you may not be able to change orientation but that is part of my point. Conversion therapy would not work because it would never be real. You can't fake it too yourself.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#9161: Feb 24th 2013 at 12:40:21 PM

Comparing this to other therapies that modify behaviour, the one we have the most research on is alcoholism. One of the first steps in recovery to alcoholism is realising that there is no cure, and you'll always be an alcoholic. Likewise a gay person would realise they're gay and that they'll always be gay and nothing can change that.

Based on that fact, trying to be in a heterosexual relationship is really unfair to your partner. There's strife in a marriage when one party isn't attracted to the other one. You can make it work, but you'll never be truly happy and that can poison a relationship and really fuck up whatever children result. In addition there's a huge risk of divorce. No spouse deserves that.

That leaves remaining celibate and unloved and that's just cruel. Since you're basically telling someone they need to come to terms with the fact that they're not allowed to love and be loved. And that is railed against in the Bible far more than homosexuality.

That's why any sort of therapy on this is a bad idea. We know the limits of this sort of thing. And just telling someone they can't love is terrible.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Snipehamster Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
#9162: Feb 24th 2013 at 12:45:11 PM

Britain's most senior Catholic accused of 'inappropriate acts' with four men. This is the same guy who compared gay marriage to slavery in a national newspaper last year.

Perhaps the latter incident was a roundabout way of publicising an interest in BDSM? [lol]

edited 24th Feb '13 12:47:24 PM by Snipehamster

HilarityEnsues Since: Sep, 2009
#9163: Feb 24th 2013 at 12:55:36 PM

"Most senior Catholic" is as about as meaningful a title as "most reliable fortune-teller".

BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#9164: Feb 24th 2013 at 12:55:45 PM

One of the first steps in recovery to alcoholism is realising that there is no cure, and you'll always be an alcoholic. - shimaspawn
I find this curious, again referencing the video about how watching porn is a reinforcing behavior. If we can break the cycle in such cases as that, why can't we break it for things like alcoholism?

Maxima: Did you see my comparison, now back a page or two? I want to make sure I'm understanding your argument correctly.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#9165: Feb 24th 2013 at 1:18:20 PM

The answer to that question is a bit out of my ability to explain. I can understand the papers about it, but putting it into plain language is trickier. That said, every addiction treatment has that as the first step.

I don't know what porn video you're talking about so I can't comment on it.

edited 24th Feb '13 1:19:55 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#9166: Feb 24th 2013 at 2:09:30 PM

[up][up] I think (emphasis on think) that the acceptance part is because alcoholism isn't something that's changeable, it's part of your brain chemistry that you have that addiction (or that predisposition towards that addiction). Likewise if you've started going to AA then I believe it's assumed you've tried other means to get your alcoholism under control, that's why one of the steps is accepting that you can't do it alone and putting yourself in the power of something else (not necessarily god though)

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#9167: Feb 24th 2013 at 5:12:48 PM

Sorry for the semantic argument but this is exactly what I'm trying to get across. I honestly don't think there is a such thing as ex-gay or ex-straight person or even ex-sexual, (now asexual used to be sexual.)

You have nothing to apologize for, and it's not a semantic argument. It's the truth. That was what Alan Chambers, head of Exodus International was saying. He's trying to say, similar to me, that if this difficult process is going to be successful we need to accept the truth; and the truth is that none of us has the power to change things that were set since long before you even knew what sexual orientation was.

Conversion therapy would not work because it would never be real. You can't fake it too yourself.
And we finally come to the crux of the matter. While this is my opinion, I feel a consistent and complete knowledge of human behavior says that predispositions are important but in no way relevant to actions and deeds.

In other words you cannot and should not fake it. But you can learn. And what you learn and practice becomes real with each iteration. Learning to speak Spanish is not faking that you don't know English. But with enough time, you can come to start to forget parts of English and become as comfortable speaking Spanish as a native speaker.

Silly Kay, there's no ex-straight therapy because straight people are normal, unlike you and me.
I want to take this moment to repeat, once again, there's nothing abnormal about being gay. It is not, as someone said earlier, a curse. Or at least it's no more curse than binge eating, smoking too much weed, or sleeping with people you're not married to.

Maxima: Did you see my comparison, now back a page or two? I want to make sure I'm understanding your argument correctly.
I thought it an excellent metaphor and there was nothing I could contribute it didn't already cover. You understand quite well.

edited 24th Feb '13 5:14:27 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#9168: Feb 24th 2013 at 5:21:38 PM

Maxima, did you miss my last post? I'd really like your feedback on it.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#9169: Feb 24th 2013 at 5:33:39 PM

Okay Starship, so why do you think conversion therapy for gays should be a thing again?

edited 24th Feb '13 5:33:58 PM by kay4today

Robotnik Since: Aug, 2011
#9170: Feb 24th 2013 at 5:39:56 PM

In other words you cannot and should not fake it. But you can learn. And what you learn and practice becomes real with each iteration

I just don't think inquiries have ever shown sexuality to follow such a pattern. Sexuality is not a skill; it goes deeper than that. It's like trying to "cure" antisocial personality disorder with therapy; it's ineffective at best. It only results in pain and self-loathing, the latter of which the subject will probably already have plenty of.

edited 24th Feb '13 5:40:20 PM by Robotnik

Matues Since: Sep, 2011
#9171: Feb 24th 2013 at 5:40:54 PM

[up][up]

Because apparently sexuality is something that can be relearned and forgotten.

edited 24th Feb '13 5:41:36 PM by Matues

Lascoden ... from Missouri, USA Since: Nov, 2012
...
#9172: Feb 24th 2013 at 5:41:21 PM

[up][up][up]I believe he thinks they should be used to prevent people from sinning. I don't think he thinks they should be used to change orientation, just teach homosexuals to be abstinent.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Starship.

edited 24th Feb '13 5:41:55 PM by Lascoden

boop
Matues Since: Sep, 2011
#9173: Feb 24th 2013 at 5:49:47 PM

I think some people take their sexual identities for granted and fail to understand how hard they are to change.

Hell, until you've spent years trying desperately to not like a certain gender, you don't know how stubbornly a part of you it can be.

kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#9174: Feb 24th 2013 at 6:04:24 PM

[up][up] Then shouldn't it be just a general abstinence therapy, then? After all, straight people aren't supposed to have sex until they marry either.

Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#9175: Feb 24th 2013 at 6:09:57 PM

@kay4today: Don't we have that right now?

This might come down to whether or not you believe people can change that part of themselves. I have doubts about this. Maybe if we had a person who'd been through the therapy and could see either of our sides.

Next up on the Mock Starship League meeting: Is Max a pinko commie? He is after all a fan of liberal leaning Star Trek but he seems to have Republican views.

edited 24th Feb '13 6:30:44 PM by Wildcard


Total posts: 16,956
Top