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Discussion of religion in the context of LGBTQ+ rights is only allowed in this thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBTQ+ rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

Edited by Mrph1 on Dec 1st 2023 at 6:52:14 PM

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#9076: Feb 22nd 2013 at 2:17:03 PM

Sadly, I have to keep him around. He's the only one who properly translates my orders so my minions don't revolt against me. [lol]

It was an honor
kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#9077: Feb 22nd 2013 at 2:17:58 PM

You should employ me. I am totally trustworthy.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#9078: Feb 22nd 2013 at 2:18:10 PM

[up]X10 You do realise that Starship didn't start this argument right? It was started because someone (I believe DG) asked Starship for his opinion. So it's really rather unfair of you to blame him for the fact that we're having this discussion. It was started by someone asking him a question, what's he meant to do? Not respond because he knows his opinion won't be liked?

[up][up] It's not my fault, Kay threatened to reveal the hidden location where I keep all the Easter Eggs. What was I meant to do?

Edit: Just checked. It wasn't DG, it was Wilcard.

edited 22nd Feb '13 2:23:54 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#9079: Feb 22nd 2013 at 2:19:49 PM

I hoped I could distract from it and pretend that post never happened, but once again Silasw has to ruin everything! D:

edited 22nd Feb '13 2:19:57 PM by kay4today

Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#9080: Feb 22nd 2013 at 2:20:18 PM

@Starship: Now the difference comes here. Is it healthy to change that? I mean period not just in today's current climate.

Is it healthy to not wish to express your sexuality in any way or towards a different orientation? I think if you forced yourself to not ever think about pretty girls, date, or have sex with a girl again you'd be feeling awful and slowly making yourself sadder and sadder through an insane amount of repression.

Your right though Starship your not a victim of your own hormones and impulses, very few people are. You make a choice whether or not a relationship is working out that may or not involve the sex in it, you choose not to try to have sex with every woman you think is pretty if she made it clear she is disinterested, you choose not to pursue a relationship with a woman if you find her personality abhorrent. I think you can see for gay people it would be no different.

But if you wanted to change your orientation it would be a different story. I think you would feel horrible and be putting yourself through a lot of self torment not just for a few months but for the rest of your life and that isn't something I'd want people to go through.

That is why I think conversion therapy won't work.

Lascoden ... from Missouri, USA Since: Nov, 2012
...
#9081: Feb 22nd 2013 at 2:22:14 PM

Wait, I thought this all started when that story about the professor got posted?

boop
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#9082: Feb 22nd 2013 at 2:26:06 PM

[up][up][up] If Starship made a post like that I'm pretty sure we'd all mob him (if we saw it before it got thumped) so it feels like quite the double standard to let Pola get away with such a post. Also I corrected my last post, it wasn’t DG who asked Starship for his opinion, it was Wild.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#9083: Feb 22nd 2013 at 2:27:33 PM

You should employ me. I am totally trustworthy.

Yeah, but you're gay so no.

It's not my fault, Kay threatened to reveal the hidden location where I keep all the Easter Eggs. What was I meant to do?

You betray me for eggs?! You little disloyal, dishonest..............

But if you wanted to change your orientation it would be a different story. I think you would feel horrible and be putting yourself through a lot of self torment not just for a few months but for the rest of your life and that isn't something I'd want people to go through.

That is why I think conversion therapy won't work.

Valid points Card. Another aspect to consider is that similar to other behavior modifications, some people would have it easier than other. And the theory holds that done properly, like exercise, it would get easier in time.

But you are correct, the cost is prohibitive. Hence, why someone should be absolutely sure they want to do it.

It was an honor
kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#9084: Feb 22nd 2013 at 2:27:40 PM

[up][up] Yes, but Starship is an acceptable target. :V

[up] I can change!!!

edited 22nd Feb '13 2:28:09 PM by kay4today

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#9085: Feb 22nd 2013 at 2:28:54 PM

[up] [lol][lol][lol][lol][tup][tup][awesome][awesome]

God, I love you Kay.

@Silasw - Once again, thank you what you wrote. But honestly, it's not the first time Polar has gone all "Why don't we all ignore Starship since he's a brick wall".

I find it best to ignore such rantings. The energy expended on trying to correct that is better spent having our discussions.

Besides like many, once she cools off, she's pretty chill.

edited 22nd Feb '13 2:30:35 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#9086: Feb 22nd 2013 at 2:30:38 PM

[up][up][up] You allied yourself with a chocolate Easter Bunny and expected to not get sold out for eggs? Really it's your own fault. tongue

[up][up] That would be funnier if it was less true.

[up] You do realise that the reason I come here is to release my inner knight in shining armour, right? I specifically hang out in this thread so I can defend people who are being unfairly attacked. I don't actually give a toss about homosexuality or religion*

edited 22nd Feb '13 2:33:36 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#9087: Feb 22nd 2013 at 2:30:45 PM

[up][up] First, my salary. Then, the conversion camp!

edited 22nd Feb '13 2:31:01 PM by kay4today

Polarstern from United States Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#9088: Feb 22nd 2013 at 2:33:32 PM

I'm not blaming Starship for disagreeing, I am blaming Starship for how he is disagreeing.

Look back at my first comments. I never said Starship couldn't hold his views. All I said was let's agree to disagree, neither side is going to change their opinion, and move on.

Starship's response was to insult me and accuse me of making up nonsense. Which if you have spent any sort of time with Starship, especially in any thread connected with homosexuality, you can see this trend.

He gets so worked up in the conflict he doesn't even realize when people are not picking a fight with him and are actually respecting his right to have whatever opinion he wants.

That is what I get annoyed with.

"Oh wait. She doesn't have a... Forget what I said, don't catch the preggo. Just wear her hat." - Question Marc
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#9089: Feb 22nd 2013 at 2:33:49 PM

Salary? Pfft. You'll work for the same reason Silasw does, for the privilege of hanging out with such a boss dude as myself.

[up] That's a rather....interesting....take on things. I won't deny I have flown off the handle from time to time. I do recall that I've always acknowledge and apologized for that though.

Of course, I hardly see how that applies to this exchange or your behavior.

edited 22nd Feb '13 2:37:55 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#9090: Feb 22nd 2013 at 2:35:23 PM

@Starship

:/

Hey, if you want me to swear off the holy vagina, you'll have to give me a decent amount of money!

edited 22nd Feb '13 2:35:33 PM by kay4today

Polarstern from United States Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#9091: Feb 22nd 2013 at 2:40:45 PM

Of course you wouldn't.

"Oh wait. She doesn't have a... Forget what I said, don't catch the preggo. Just wear her hat." - Question Marc
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#9092: Feb 22nd 2013 at 2:42:11 PM

@Kay - You'll do it or your little girlfriend gets it!evil grin

Actually, I have to step away for a bit, so I bid each of you adieu till I get back in a few hours.

See Polar, I can be accommodating. wink

edited 22nd Feb '13 2:42:38 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
Matues Since: Sep, 2011
#9093: Feb 22nd 2013 at 2:43:09 PM

Maxima, you would not have to hate your child for being gay.

If you've taught them that homosexual impulses are something wrong that should never be acted on or acknowledged, then they'll silently hate themselves for you.

One of the most beloved and trusted people in their lives (You) has told them this.

The easiest and most insidious kind of hatred is that which is self-imposed. You are giving them the rope with which to hang themselves.

I'm sure you understand the concept of unforgivable sins?

Perverting the trusting relationship between a parent and child, suggesting that they try to cut out part if themselves to please your beliefs..

That is unforgivable.

kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#9094: Feb 22nd 2013 at 2:45:42 PM

@Starship

You mean you'll give her the money? D:

Wait, no, I'll do it for half the pay!

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#9095: Feb 22nd 2013 at 2:45:48 PM

Look back at my first comments. I never said Starship couldn't hold his views. All I said was let's agree to disagree, neither side is going to change their opinion, and move on.

I disagree with this for several reasons. Firstly we have actually changed Starship's views during the cores of our debates with him so I don't belie we should write of convincing him of other things. Secondly, even if we can't change his opinion, so what? We enjoy having our little debates, it's not hurting anyone. You dropping into the thread and insisting that we should all stop just because we won't convince Starship is starting to come across (to me at least) as "Stop Having Fun" Guys.

Starship's response was to insult me and accuse me of making up nonsense.

Can you tell me what post this was? I believe you, Starship has gone off the rails multiple times in these threads (hell back in the day he even attacked me), I just can't find the instance your talking about.

He gets so worked up in the conflict he doesn't even realize when people are not picking a fight with him and are actually respecting his right to have whatever opinion he wants.

That is what I get annoyed with.

It's certainly annoying and a tread that has been occurring with him from the very beginning. But seeing as he's normally the lone one voicing his view (and when he's not he's probably wishing he is) I can kidna understand why he gets so defensive all the time.

Edit:

Salary? Pfft. You'll work for the same reason Silasw does, for the privilege of hanging out with such a boss dude as myself.

Sure, let's go with that...

edited 22nd Feb '13 2:50:04 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Polarstern from United States Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#9096: Feb 22nd 2013 at 2:46:22 PM

Starship, I rather you relax and not read into shit instead of "being accomidating."

"Oh wait. She doesn't have a... Forget what I said, don't catch the preggo. Just wear her hat." - Question Marc
kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#9097: Feb 22nd 2013 at 2:47:24 PM

Ugh, can't we all just hug and get along or something?

Starship obviously won't hug the gays because they're unclean but the rest?

edited 22nd Feb '13 2:47:32 PM by kay4today

Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#9098: Feb 22nd 2013 at 2:48:08 PM

[up]Hugs.

@Starship: And would it work on a straight person such as yourself? Would it get any easier as time went on to never express yourself as a straight man? I'm not just talking about premarital sex here I mean through all your life. I don't imagine it like getting into the habit of exercise I think of it more like shocking yourself any time you get a sexual thought and honestly I'd have trouble seeing it any other way.

An asexual is not going to have thoughts of how awesome sex is no matter how much you try to convince him or her otherwise, (any asexuals who can confirm or tell me I'm wrong feel free too). I see it as the same type of thing for homosexuals and heterosexuals.

edited 22nd Feb '13 3:16:32 PM by Wildcard

Polarstern from United States Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#9099: Feb 22nd 2013 at 3:12:32 PM

Silsaw,

Post 9024, I say as long as Starship sees nonheterosexual orientations as a sin, he will never stop trying to fix it. I point out the absurdity of him comparing dieting to orientation.

Post 9028, Starship accuses me of Strawmanning and other logical fallicies, totally not registering that I am stating a fact based on his own comments. I am not making a "counterpoint" or anything else.

Post 9044, I clarify that I wasn't making a counterpoint or attempting to argue with him. Simply saying again, let's agree to disagree and move onto something different. This does not mean Starship can't discuss anything, rather let's just all move the discussion forward.

Post 9049, Starship says how I fabricate shit all the time among other uncalled for insults and says how I can leave the discussion.

Post 9068, I call him out just like you have before stating simply that he's so wrapped up in conflict he can't even see when people are respecting him.

Look, I like debates. But I like civil debates. I like intellegent debates. I don't care if the opposition is 1 or 1000. But I also recognize dead ends and when maybe we need to take a break from a topic. It gets really pointless when everyone is ganging up on Starship, he's obviously going to intrench himself further as evident time and time again.

"Oh wait. She doesn't have a... Forget what I said, don't catch the preggo. Just wear her hat." - Question Marc
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#9100: Feb 23rd 2013 at 8:14:51 AM

Hey kids. I'm back. Didja miss me?? (Silence from thread) Well....okay.

@Polar - It's difficult to respond to you for several reasons. You simply repeat the same things over and over, and ignore the fact after fact after fact that's presented. Also I don't want take time and energy from the free and rich back-and-forth I share with less wound-up tropers here to constantly argue this issue.

So......I'll boil my answer down to this. I accuse you and insult you of nothing. When your statements are backed up more by your personal issues and biases than by the facts, I will say so, and I'll clearly show you where. If you want to respond you'll address my points with counterpoints of your own. Simply repeating "Starship gets defensive and never listens" is not any kind of adult answer.

And you know what, that's fine. You are not the first person who can't handle being told that no matter how much you repeat something, all it is is repeating the same wrong thing over and over. I've done it myself. But......where you need to draw the line is where you veer from your own unwillingness to be challenged to "....and therefore it's pointless to talk to Starship. Therefore he should get his own thread."

As I've told you for now the fifth time, if you don't wish to debate me, that's your right. I don't hold it against you. But please don't suggest Kay, Silasw, Card, Lasco, Matues, Morgikit, etc. and I should not speak because you fail to see the point in it. I don't go around suggesting discussing anything is a waste of time and we should all stop. I'm asking you, if you think it's pointless to speak to me, simply don't post. But the rest of us get something out of these debates, so as Silasw pointed out to you, let us have our debate not derailed by you. Thanks.


Starship: And would it work on a straight person such as yourself? Would it get any easier as time went on to never express yourself as a straight man? I'm not just talking about premarital sex here I mean through all your life. I don't imagine it like getting into the habit of exercise I think of it more like shocking yourself any time you get a sexual thought and honestly I'd have trouble seeing it any other way.

That's a pretty difficult question to answer. I've never tried. I have tried celibacy, and for a long time I was good at it (aided by the fact that it's not like I have women throwing themselves at me[lol]). But then, I did what Christians call "backsliding" and it's been a bitch trying to get back up.

The thing to realize is that, as Morgikit pointed out, people can succeed and fail. As I explained to him, in any behavior therapy there are people who'll achieve results only to fail again. It's difficult to know who can and cannot succeed. Part of the issue is that as you say, you view less like exercise and more like Pavlov's dogs. The fact that we've brainwashed people into believing it's so impossible is naturally going to make it so for many. It's similar to someone who was always healthy and active who simply got a bit complacent and gained some weight who'll have a far easier time of getting back in shape, than someone who had a lifetime of being told they were "fat and useless".

Maxima, you would not have to hate your child for being gay.

If you've taught them that homosexual impulses are something wrong that should never be acted on or acknowledged, then they'll silently hate themselves for you.

Matues, your post gave me much pause, as this is one of the most horrific things a parent can think to do to a child. I intend to love any child God give me, vis-a-vis my wife or adoption. And I don't want them to start down the long dark road to self-hatred. I spent many years, my whole childhood in fact, on that road. I know where it leads.

However, I believe my own experiences provide a key to ensuring that doesn't happen. As I said before, if I believe homosexuality is wrong, I have to say so and teach my children accordingly, or else fail in my duty to them. However this doesn't mean "what you're doing is wrong" is synonymous with "you should hate yourself".

My children will learn from an early age that the entire point of the Bible is that NOBODY, including their own father who has so much blood on his hands he could open a blood bank, has to be ashamed or hateful of themselves. The entire point of Jesus and the Holy Spirit is that where we are weak, he's strong. It's precisely because he's sexual behavior is a choice; not his orientation, that he doesn't have to feel he's simply "wrong" and there's nothing he can do about it.

More important than that, my children will know I'll love them unconditionally as God loves their father unconditionally in spite of being a bit of a fuck-up. My children will know that while I might not encourage their lifestyle, that will never be a condition for love and acceptance.

edited 23rd Feb '13 8:41:41 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor

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