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Discussion of religion in the context of LGBTQ+ rights is only allowed in this thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBTQ+ rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

Edited by Mrph1 on Dec 1st 2023 at 6:52:14 PM

Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#8576: Feb 6th 2013 at 3:05:33 PM

I think Winston Churchill skewered tradition best of all when someone argued that better working conditions for Royal Navy sailors was "against the traditions" of the Navy: "What traditions? Rum, sodomy, and the lash?"

Schild und Schwert der Partei
drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#8577: Feb 6th 2013 at 3:19:09 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe traditionally Britain used to hang homosexuals. And traditionally Romans fed Christians to lions. Maybe "because it's tradition" isn't the best excuse to do things.

It's a truism that people only hold up tradition when it benefits them to do so. Besides, most of the Appeal to Tradition people use to justify keeping the LGBT community down involves a generous helping of misunderstood history.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#8578: Feb 6th 2013 at 4:03:50 PM

Except for in the DDR - Achaemenid
DDR?

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#8579: Feb 6th 2013 at 6:24:48 PM

Has anything changed with the scout decision?

Edit: Argh! Looks like they delayed the decision: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/07/us/boy-scouts-postpone-decision-on-gays.html

I didn't want this too happen and I don't care for the Appeal to Tradition argument. Tradition being so frequently used to excuse horrible policies. I'm concerned that it will give the church groups more time to announce pulling support and the scouts having to consider this from a financial point of view which I think will make them keep the ban. New decision in May.

Hopefully the gay marriage decision does not get delayed in the UK.

Gotta love the "protect the children" sign. "Oh noes they might learn that people of a different orientation exist!"

edited 6th Feb '13 6:59:20 PM by Wildcard

kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#8580: Feb 6th 2013 at 10:44:40 PM

Be reasonable, Wild. They might catch the gay.

Vericrat Like this, but brown. from .0000001 seconds ago Since: Oct, 2011
Like this, but brown.
#8581: Feb 6th 2013 at 11:07:31 PM

[up]Hey, cut the sarcasm. After all, Senator Kelly caught his version of the gay. For all we know, the gays are getting ready to make a machine comparable to Magneto's.

edited 6th Feb '13 11:08:12 PM by Vericrat

Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#8582: Feb 6th 2013 at 11:09:39 PM

For all we know, the gays are getting ready to make a machine comparable to Magneto's.

HOW DID YOU LEARN MY PLANS???

...

...

...I mean, noooo... That would be crazy.

edited 6th Feb '13 11:09:54 PM by deathpigeon

Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#8583: Feb 7th 2013 at 1:03:36 AM

The funny part is that the actor who played Magneto is gay, and used the whole mutant = LGBT vibe of the movies to identify with his character. So...yeah... tongue

Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#8584: Feb 7th 2013 at 1:05:32 AM

I hope in the future Reality will really have moved on to other issues. Of course, poor us "conservatives of tomorrow" will all be up in arms against AI marriage and otherkin brain transplant...

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#8585: Feb 7th 2013 at 5:13:19 AM

Imagine when we get to the issue of Outer Space Alien marriage.evil grin

Anyone got any news about Homosexuality and Religion?

edited 7th Feb '13 5:16:34 AM by Wildcard

Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#8586: Feb 7th 2013 at 5:57:30 AM

[up]

Ask, and you shall surely recieve:

Vatican speaks in defense of gay couples.

A high-ranking Vatican official on Monday (Feb. 4) voiced support for giving unmarried couples some kind of legal protection even as he reaffirmed the Catholic Church’s opposition to same-sex marriage.

Archbishop Vincenzo Paglia, head of the Pontifical Council for the Family, also said the church should do more to protect gays and lesbians from discrimination in countries where homosexuality is illegal.

In his first Vatican press conference since his appointment as the Catholic Church’s “minister” for family, Paglia conceded that there are several kinds of “cohabitation forms that do not constitute a family,” and that their number is growing.

Paglia suggested that nations could find “private law solutions” to help individuals who live in non-matrimonial relations, “to prevent injustice and make their life easier.”

Nevertheless, Paglia was adamant in reaffirming society’s duty to preserve the unique value of marriage.

“The church must defend the truth, and the truth is that a marriage is only between a man and a woman,” he said. Other kinds of “affections” cannot be the foundation for a “public structure” such as marriage.

“We cannot surrender to a sick egalitarianism that abolishes every difference,” he warned, and run the risk of society becoming a new “Babel.”

Schild und Schwert der Partei
DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#8587: Feb 7th 2013 at 6:05:47 AM

[up] I was going to say "It's better than a kick in the balls"

Then I read

“The church must defend the truth, and the truth is that a marriage is only between a man and a woman, ” he said. Other kinds of “affections” cannot be the foundation for a “public structure” such as marriage.

“We cannot surrender to a sick egalitarianism that abolishes every difference, ” he warned, and run the risk of society becoming a new “Babel.”

Does he even know what "public structure" means? Or is he vomiting verbal diarrhea between his daily altar-boy diddling? (Yes, I'm going to keep going on about that until the church acknowledges that they screwed up, and actually punish the people who've done that. Thus far, they've still be in cover-up, hide the damage mode about child sexual abuse)

Secondly, sick egalitarianism are two works that should never be used together.

Third, I'm pretty sure that's not what the story of Babel was about. I though knowing these things was supposed to be your job.

Lastly..."affections" in quotes like that seriously makes me want to hit you.

edited 7th Feb '13 6:10:30 AM by DrTentacles

Morgikit Mikon :3 from War Drobe, Spare Oom Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Mikon :3
#8588: Feb 7th 2013 at 6:05:52 AM

[up][up][up]Some of the homophobes probably think we are space aliens.

[up][up]So basically, "keep them second class citizens, but be nicer about it"?

edited 7th Feb '13 6:06:42 AM by Morgikit

Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#8589: Feb 7th 2013 at 6:07:45 AM

"The truth is marriage is between man and woman" Not by historical standards. It has not always been that way, they have not always had control of this public institution and just because they have control of it now does not make it the truth.

Jhimmibhob Since: Dec, 2010
#8590: Feb 7th 2013 at 7:00:14 AM

[up]Actually, they don't have control of it—which is why they're using their speech rights to publicly voice their stances on the issue, and to reach voters or public officials amenable to persuasion towards said stances.

[up][up]It's unlikely that the Vatican considers gay marriage ontologically possible, so saying that they want to make anyone "second-class citizens" would probably strike them as less than coherent ... or as tantamount to complaining about the "unfairness" of gravity and thermodynamics. The archbishop's statement is a simple, unsurprising call for charity even in the face of grave confusion (by his lights), combined with an understandable refusal to let confusion have the final word.

Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#8591: Feb 7th 2013 at 7:05:37 AM

Jhim marriage between gay people is Ontologically Possible and I don't know why you keep insisting it isn't. Or why it matters considering we have done changed plenty of legal definitions before with little to no bad results. In fact I think it is far more important to change the law to protect it's citizens than to carry on using a limited legal definition just because of a fear this might lead to non-specific "bad things".

edited 7th Feb '13 7:10:20 AM by Wildcard

Polarstern from United States Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#8592: Feb 7th 2013 at 7:07:41 AM

Countries don't have free speech. They make statements that they can be held accountable.

"Oh wait. She doesn't have a... Forget what I said, don't catch the preggo. Just wear her hat." - Question Marc
Vericrat Like this, but brown. from .0000001 seconds ago Since: Oct, 2011
Like this, but brown.
#8593: Feb 7th 2013 at 7:20:38 AM

[up]People have free speech rights. And since the main level of organization of people in the world are countries, I don't think people surrender their free speech rights in the international community just because they speak through their countries.

Now, anyone can be "held accountable" for their speech if you mean that others don't have to associate with you if they don't like your opinions. And that's not just at a country level; if your views are offensive to a Republican, they don't have to associate with you.

Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#8594: Feb 7th 2013 at 7:27:12 AM

[up] Exactly.

It was an honor
kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#8595: Feb 7th 2013 at 7:39:46 AM

If you make any statements that make you look like a Nazi here in Austria, you'll be in trouble.

Jhimmibhob Since: Dec, 2010
#8596: Feb 7th 2013 at 7:46:14 AM

Jhim marriage between gay people is Ontologically Possible and I don't know why you keep insisting it isn't. Or why it matters considering we have done changed plenty of legal definitions before with little to no bad results. In fact I think it is far more important to change the law to protect it's citizens than to carry on using a limited legal definition just because of a fear this might lead to non-specific "bad things".
In this instance, Wildcard, I'm not trying to re-open that argument; I'm just referring to the archbishop's probable views, and to the oft-implied teachings of the Catholic Church.

And of course, Polar is right that "speech rights" is an iffy concept here. I'll rephrase it as "custom-honored speech prerogatives of sovereign states and their representatives in the international arena." Not as snappy-sounding, but what can you do?

Polarstern from United States Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#8597: Feb 7th 2013 at 7:53:20 AM

Countries have different accountablility than people.

People can be sued for liable or slander. But countries can be sanctioned, called out in international forums, and held to economic pressures.

Anyone can say whatever they want. You just have to be willing to accept the consequences of those words.

"Oh wait. She doesn't have a... Forget what I said, don't catch the preggo. Just wear her hat." - Question Marc
Morgikit Mikon :3 from War Drobe, Spare Oom Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Mikon :3
#8598: Feb 7th 2013 at 7:57:22 AM

I find it amusing that a spokesman for an organization that talks about talking snakes, planet wide floods, water turning to wine and the dead rising from the grave considers same-sex marriage "impossible".

Anyone can say whatever they want. You just have to be willing to accept the consequences of those words.

But that's socialist thought control.

edited 7th Feb '13 8:00:28 AM by Morgikit

Vericrat Like this, but brown. from .0000001 seconds ago Since: Oct, 2011
Like this, but brown.
#8599: Feb 7th 2013 at 7:58:25 AM

[up][up][up]I strongly disagree with this, but I acknowledge it exists.

[up]If you mean countries don't have an enforceable right to free speech, I agree - if the international community decides to wipe you off the planet because you said something they don't like, I suppose they probably can. That doesn't mean that the right that we talk about isn't still important.

I don't think we should be sanctioning people (or groups of people) for their opinions. Instead, we should sanction them for their actions.

Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.
Polarstern from United States Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#8600: Feb 7th 2013 at 8:04:48 AM

It all depends on the words.

"Oh wait. She doesn't have a... Forget what I said, don't catch the preggo. Just wear her hat." - Question Marc

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