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Discussion of religion in the context of LGBTQ+ rights is only allowed in this thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBTQ+ rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

Edited by Mrph1 on Dec 1st 2023 at 6:52:14 PM

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#7301: Jan 19th 2013 at 10:57:37 AM

Wow, I remember in Church, I've heard pastors basically anybody but two virgins who marry each other and stay together till death, are sinning. Which is probably.....69% of the world's population.

Y'know, at this moment someone will ask "So Starship why do you bother following it?" Sometimes, I wonder myself.

It was an honor
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#7302: Jan 19th 2013 at 11:01:09 AM

And keep in mind that there are sects believe that losing your virginity counts as marriage even in cases of rape because there is a biblical passage to back this up.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#7303: Jan 19th 2013 at 11:07:56 AM

Whoa now Shima. We've already established that the Bible doesn't "back up" something as filthy as rape.

It was an honor
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#7304: Jan 19th 2013 at 11:08:22 AM

@Starship: So, I guess you're going to lead a life of celibacy too, eh?

@Shima: Yeah, my parent's church believed that. It's why I got engaged at 17.

[up] Nah, marrying the victim was supposed to be his punishment. Otherwise he got stoned to death.

edited 19th Jan '13 11:09:00 AM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#7305: Jan 19th 2013 at 11:09:47 AM

[up] You got engaged against your will?

Which century do those people live in? :V

DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#7306: Jan 19th 2013 at 11:11:46 AM

[up] Oh no, I had a choice. It was just a choice to either get engaged or suffer an eternity of damnation and shame. tongue

Two years later, I ditched religion (for a multitude of other reasons) and broke it off.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#7307: Jan 19th 2013 at 11:12:42 AM

Oh well, if it's just th- wait, that's still terrible! D:

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#7308: Jan 19th 2013 at 11:14:31 AM

@DG: Lead a life of celibacy? [lol][lol]! Good one. Women are just too goddamn gorgeous, I'm sorry.

re: DG being a fiancee at 17: Well I do recall you saying you're from Oklahoma. So....at the moment you were to say "I do" did Scriblerian bust through the door on his motorcycle and spirit you away??

re: Allowing to marry the victim: Yep. Bible says if you rape someone you get stoned. Or in the case of some, hung. I don't know why everyone shoots down my suggestions that we go back to Old Testament punishments for heinous crimes.

edited 19th Jan '13 11:29:33 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#7309: Jan 19th 2013 at 11:22:39 AM

Starship, you might not agree, but there are sects of Christianity who really do believe that a victim has to marry their rapist or live in sin forever. It's terrible and misogynistic, but there are people who honestly believe this.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Lascoden ... from Missouri, USA Since: Nov, 2012
...
#7310: Jan 19th 2013 at 11:25:57 AM

"28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."—Deuteronmy 22:28-22:29, NIV.

boop
DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#7311: Jan 19th 2013 at 11:32:18 AM

Can we just put that under "Fair for Its Day?"

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#7312: Jan 19th 2013 at 11:33:05 AM

Y'know, at this moment someone will ask "So Starship why do you bother following it?" Sometimes, I wonder myself.

I was just about to ask you just that question before I read that. >.< I know that, if I believed in the Abrahamic God, I would not be a Christian, and would refuse to worship or follow the Abrahamic God.

Can we just put that under "Fair for Its Day?"

No, because it wasn't. There were cultures at the same time which were far more fair than the Bible.

edited 19th Jan '13 11:34:56 AM by deathpigeon

kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#7313: Jan 19th 2013 at 11:33:11 AM

[up][up][up][up][up] Uh... probably because stoning someone to death is ridiculously cruel and lethal injection way more practical and morally less questionable. :V

[up][up] Didn't know Fair for Its Day applied to God. XD

edited 19th Jan '13 11:33:38 AM by kay4today

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#7314: Jan 19th 2013 at 11:36:50 AM

The way I figure it, you rape somebody, you lose the right to 'more humane' treatment. Honestly, if we publicly stoned a guy who was found provably guilty of rape, I really think you'd see the abominable rape statistic plunge.

It was an honor
kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#7315: Jan 19th 2013 at 11:41:02 AM

Bah, whatever. This isn't the thread for this. All I'm going to say is that I disagree.

edited 19th Jan '13 11:44:03 AM by kay4today

DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#7316: Jan 19th 2013 at 11:43:42 AM

Look. The Bible was pretty clearly a product of it's time. The "You must marry her" but was put there so the rapist had an obligation to care for the rape-ee. Sure, it's backward, and horrible from our point of view, for the time? Not stoning the WOMAN to death/calling her forever ruined is pretty damn progressive.

I hate it when people try to apply modern standards of morality to books written by ancient cultures.

Yeah, yeah, you're trying to shock Starship out of his religion, and get him to evaluate the whole "accepting the Bible as gospel" thing.

Look, I guess I'm just getting annoyed at how utterly, one-sidedly negative you guys are toward Christianity. It's not a bad religion. It has bad people that follow, but the basic tenants of Christianity are fairly unambiguously good.

Now, does it have some horrible, backward stuff? Yes.

Should we overlook that stuff? No.

Should we condemn any religion, Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, whatever, on the basis of it's worst elements? No.

kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#7317: Jan 19th 2013 at 11:44:43 AM

Again, how does Fair for Its Day apply to God? I didn't know he was so behind things back then. xD

DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#7318: Jan 19th 2013 at 11:44:57 AM

@Starship:

Lead a life of celibacy? ! Good one. Women are just too goddamn gorgeous, I'm sorry.

But the Bible says you're a sinner if you sleep with anyone else, or get married to anyone else. Just like it says that gay people have to be celibate to be righteous.

So, uh, I guess I'll see you in hell too?

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#7319: Jan 19th 2013 at 11:45:46 AM

[up][up][up][tup][awesome] Thank you.

[up][up]The words we've got were written by humans in their day and age. tongue And, you know it. Quit trying to be over-clever. <_<

edited 19th Jan '13 11:47:14 AM by Euodiachloris

kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#7320: Jan 19th 2013 at 11:48:30 AM

[up] Missing my point, because as far as I can recall, Starship believes God was the one who wrote the bible. Or something like that.

edited 19th Jan '13 11:52:13 AM by kay4today

drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#7321: Jan 19th 2013 at 11:53:08 AM

@Starship: you are starting to get to why I am not religious. Basically, I view religion the way I view every other form of mythology (and by "mythology" I mean "every piece of fiction ever crafted")...that there are positive lessons to be drawn, but at the end of the day the onus is on me, the individual, to apply those lessons to the situation I find myself in.

I was taught to think for myself, and the more I have done this in my life the better my life has gotten. Religion teaches people to do what they are told...and because it is founded by people, and led by people, religion is open to the very human flaws of greed and ego.

As someone who has been in several religions and having played roleplaying games my whole adult life, I also find that religion encourages delusional behavior. It encourages people to take fiction at face value and believe in it as if it were fact...and when people do this in a non-religious context we call them crazy and lock them up.

I ask you; what is the difference between someone who believes God is real and someone who believes that Spider-Man is real?

Now, this is not meant as an insult or a dismissal. Sure, all religions are fiction...but we need fiction and mythology in our lives to be healthy and whole. Mythology is what raised mankind out of the mud in the first place.

But it needs to be relegated to its proper place.

There are good moral lessons in the Bible. I follow some of them. But, I follow them because they make logical sense, not because someone said I had to. And I'll believe in a deity when one decides to come down out of wherever and show itself to me, but not before.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#7322: Jan 19th 2013 at 11:58:04 AM

So, uh, I guess I'll see you in hell too?

You bring the beers, I'll order the pizza?

It was an honor
DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#7323: Jan 19th 2013 at 11:58:27 AM

The obvious conclusion, and the one you're trying to lead Starship to, I assume, is that the (very human) writers of the Bible may have inserted their cultural biases into the document.

Or maybe we can say the bible, in addition to being a holy book, is also a cultural/legal document, which served, in addition to a religious touchstone for a group of people, as a legal and social touchstone? That writers may have used to try to create stability for a nation?

Look, I don't disagree with your point. I just think "Some of the bible is flawed, and therefore, people should reject Christianity as a whole" (especially since many Christians that I've met can keep their personal beliefs from harming others.) is just as shallow and stupid a view as "The Bible, a (if you accept Christianity) divinely inspired book, is perfect and unquestionable." (Despite being channeled through a imperfect, flawed vessel, by it's own words)

Now, before you accuse me Strawmanning, let me say that I don't think you're contentiously trying to attack Christianity as a whole, or faith in general. However, by your own words, and from what I've seen, a lot of you (I refer mostly to Kay, deathpidgeon Lawerdude, and Morgkit) have been on some level, repeatedly and personally wronged by Christians, and believe that the world would be a better place without Christianity.

  • Sigh* This is a complex subject. I don't think blindly attacking an entirely religion, implicitly, or explicitly is the way to go about it. I've seen statements from people here, which, if turned around and applied to...I don't know, any other personal belief system, wouldn't sound very pretty. And I do think you've been too harsh on Starship, who's had the courage to re-evaluate pretty much his entire belief system, (something I'm not sure I could do in his situation).

Look, I'd just like people to tone down the bile (justified as it may or may not be), and not paint an entire religion, which was composed by hundreds of different people over literally thousands of years with a single brush.

[up][up] (Pretty much my view. I follow the Tao of Pratchett. People need something to believe in, be it God, myths, moral codes, government, "greater good." We need something to strive for, to lift us up, and make us better than we are. For many people, religion serves that purpose.)

edited 19th Jan '13 12:01:11 PM by DrTentacles

kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#7324: Jan 19th 2013 at 12:03:37 PM

[up]

The Bible, a (if you accept Christianity) divinely inspired book, is perfect and unquestionable

As far as I can recall, Starship believes exactly that. :V

Also, stop assuming so many things. You have no idea about my exact views on Christianity.

edited 19th Jan '13 12:04:11 PM by kay4today

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#7325: Jan 19th 2013 at 12:05:42 PM

Look. The Bible was pretty clearly a product of it's time.

No, it wasn't. The Old Testament was written in the 500s BC at the earliest. Well after Hammurabis laws which were far fairer than the Old Testament. At the same time, Rome formed into a republic, which, while not exactly progressive today, was very progressive back then, meanwhile the Old Testament still supported Kings. Heck, the Persian Empire let the Jews go back to Judea and had freedom of religion which allowed the Jews to practice their religion and transcribe the Old Testament, and there's nothing anywhere near as progressive, for the time, as the Persians basically saying, "We don't believe what you believe, but, if you want to believe it, were cool with that." It is backwards now. It was backwards for its time. You do not get to claim that the Bible was some big progressive document, for its time. You do not get to say that it was Fair for Its Day. It wasn't. It was regressive.

However, by your own words, and from what I've seen, a lot of you (I refer mostly to Kay, deathpidgeon Lawerdude, and Morgkit) have been on some level, repeatedly and personally wronged by Christians, and believe that the world would be a better place without Christianity.

I have never been personally wronged by Christianity. I wish it gone, but that's because I see it as false and a promoter of authoritarian structure and authoritarian in its own right demanding subservience to the Abrahamic God. However, that's not something unique to it. That's the same complaint I have for Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and, to a slightly lesser extent, Buddhism. Christianity isn't all that special, to me.

Also, there is no d in pigeon.

edited 19th Jan '13 12:09:34 PM by deathpigeon


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