TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion

Go To

Discussion of religion in the context of LGBTQ+ rights is only allowed in this thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBTQ+ rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

Edited by Mrph1 on Dec 1st 2023 at 6:52:14 PM

Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#7226: Jan 18th 2013 at 10:53:39 AM

@Starship: I know and you are a good Christian for it. Your a good person who is stating what is in this board an unpopular opinion. I don't agree with it. I think kay is right that it wouldn't hurt anyone. Nobody is trying to say stop having that opinion there saying your wrong.

edited 18th Jan '13 10:58:51 AM by Wildcard

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#7227: Jan 18th 2013 at 11:02:12 AM

Wildcard, it means a lot you think I am. Personally, I think I leave a lot to be desired.

But to you and Lascoden I ask, how do I know?? How do I know who'll be hurt by my lie? To what degree?

And what if I tell a lie to get an outcome I believe was right, but then.....I realize I was wrong?

I've ALREADY hurt people because the rhetoric was more important than the truth. I didn't have to bother looking at the facts because so and so said it, and that's good enough. I can't go back and undo that. No matter what, those deeds are on my head.

I can't let it happen again. Your gay rights are great and all, but my conscience comes first.

Yes, people are questioning your opinion. Get over it.

[lol][lol][lol] That you mistake me responding to you for me being bothered by yours or anyone else's retorts is amusing.

edited 18th Jan '13 11:04:04 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#7228: Jan 18th 2013 at 11:05:43 AM

So in other words, you're telling us lying in order to get gay rights is wrong, because... something bad could happen somehow?

People have been hurt by the truth before as well. What if we think telling the truth is right, but it's actually wrong? So yes, it can go both ways.

edited 18th Jan '13 11:34:17 AM by kay4today

Lascoden ... from Missouri, USA Since: Nov, 2012
...
#7229: Jan 18th 2013 at 11:10:21 AM

[up]There's also the fact that the supposed lie could very well be the truth. The truth is, as of yet, unknown.

boop
kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#7230: Jan 18th 2013 at 11:12:39 AM

Yeah, that too.

edited 18th Jan '13 11:13:22 AM by kay4today

Morgikit Mikon :3 from War Drobe, Spare Oom Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Mikon :3
#7231: Jan 18th 2013 at 11:16:26 AM

I wish people would stop turning this into an either/or situation where if LGBTs aren't made to suffer, then religious people will be persecuted instead. I don't want that to happen. I'm not a villain. I'd be fine with a world where fundies could spout their bullshit and LGBTs could ignore them and live as equals with heterosexuals and cisgender people. But that can't happen as long as there are laws and amendments treating us as second class citizens, which the fundies are supporting.

edited 18th Jan '13 11:17:41 AM by Morgikit

TenTailsBeast The Ultimate Lifeform from The Culture Since: Feb, 2012
#7232: Jan 18th 2013 at 11:25:45 AM

I'd be fine with a world where fundies could spout their bullshit and LGB Ts could ignore them and live as equals with heterosexuals and cisgender people.

I'm assuming that they would have children, so...

I vowed, and so did you: Beyond this wall- we would make it through.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#7233: Jan 18th 2013 at 11:56:36 AM

My point stands. I'll fight to see LGTB Qs treated the same as anybody else. Not more. Not less. I won't resort to misrepresentation and/or lying to do it. Especially since we denounce "the other side" for doing it.

So in other words, you're telling us lying in order to get gay rights is wrong, because... something bad could happen somehow?

Yes. Basically.

edited 18th Jan '13 11:57:51 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#7234: Jan 18th 2013 at 11:58:34 AM

@Starship: I'm glad your willing to question. Even after everything I have said defending lies, tricks, and suspending the rules to help a group of people I consider the oppressed I'm glad people are willing to question despite what others people might think of them. If one didn't question then their is a real danger of rhetoric overriding all people with different views. Everyone must remain vigilant even if a lie goes through so nobody is oppressed by it.

I'm defending this, hell perhaps even advocating it but I can see why some people see no other options. It's been over 50 years since the civil rights movement and still some places in America are segregated, it has been decades since the Gay Pride Movement started and they can't get married yet and kids are thrown out of their homes for being gay by their parents. If the truth does not work you can't give up but powerful people, people who control the law will fight you. If you have to lie to get the powerful ones taken down and get paid attention too than it is a better option than giving up because some won't listen to truth.

kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#7235: Jan 18th 2013 at 11:59:55 AM

[up][up] Ignoring the rest of my post.

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#7236: Jan 18th 2013 at 12:26:10 PM

I don't have anything to say. I see where we're different. Now I'm just contemplating what this means going forward.

It was an honor
kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#7237: Jan 18th 2013 at 12:31:35 PM

Okay, I'll start making friendship bracelets!

Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#7238: Jan 18th 2013 at 1:36:47 PM

Relevant. An amusing spoof advertisement by the Coalition 4 Equal Marriage in the UK.

Schild und Schwert der Partei
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#7239: Jan 18th 2013 at 2:58:01 PM

You people do realize that sexual orientation is something a bit more complex than hair color or tattoos right? - Morgikit
Obviously they are, but I don't think there's another good psychological comparison, so I went with the best one I could think of at the time. If it's not stigmatized, some people will change it just because they can change it.

Why must you see shadows and assume giants? - Matues
Because giants are more awesome than windmills?

I would never insult you, passive-aggressively or overtly. - Maxima
You should have added an "intentionally" near the beginning of that sentance. It is obviously quite easy to accidentally insult people, as the internet has proven time and again.

Starship Maxima is a program built and run by the FRC. - Maxima
Ahah! So you admit it!

Liberty is more important than truth. - deathpigeon
No. Freedom based on constant lies is not freedom.

You Christians and your obsession with "truth" - Morgikit
I cannot express how truly ironic I find this statement. Normally it's Christians being accused of ignoring the truth to base all their decisions on "faith"**, and as an atheist who greatly prefers the truth, if not to the point of "obsession", I find it highly insulting as well.

What you seem to be suggesting is a case of Becoming the Mask, faking it till you make it. I personally find that rather...wrong. - I Confuse Me
I may be off on this, but isn't this exactly the kind of thing recommended to, for example, help people overcome lack of confidence, or addictive behaviors?**

Lying to get equal rights doesn't result in anyone getting screwed over - kay
The problem with that is, how do you know ahead of time? We can't predict the future, and while yes, it's most likely that your equal rights isn't going to screw over some other innocent party**, most likely isn't a guarantee.

I wish people would stop turning this into an either/or situation where if LGB Ts aren't made to suffer, then religious people will be persecuted instead. - Morgikit
I don't think it's an either/or, LGBT/Christian suffering. I took Maxima's example to be simply a hypothetical statement of, "if people were basing discrimination on my religion instead of my sexual orientation, most of you wouldn't be on my side."

[up] Wow. My wife really didn't appreciate me trying to watch that while she was watching a Danny Glover movie.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#7240: Jan 18th 2013 at 3:06:33 PM

No. Freedom based on constant lies is not freedom.

Your opinion, nothing more.

The problem with that is, how do you know ahead of time? We can't predict the future, and while yes, it's most likely that your equal rights isn't going to screw over some other innocent party**, most likely isn't a guarantee.

So, who is that supposed to screw over? Because baseless fears with no argumentation are nothing to worry about.

Another problem is this: How do we know that our rights keep getting denied won't turn out worse? So yes, it goes both ways.

"if people were basing discrimination on my religion instead of my sexual orientation, most of you wouldn't be on my side."

Wrong. I would be on his side, obviously, since no one should get discriminated against.

edited 18th Jan '13 3:07:50 PM by kay4today

Lascoden ... from Missouri, USA Since: Nov, 2012
...
#7241: Jan 18th 2013 at 3:07:20 PM

I may be off on this, but isn't this exactly the kind of thing recommended to, for example, help people overcome lack of confidence, or addictive behaviors?
Not exactly, at least in my experience. The addicts that I know say that they are always addicts, they simply abstain. But they will always be addicts. As someone who is dealing with confidence issues, what I've been told is not to act like your confident, but instead focus on your positive traits. It's subtle, but it makes a huge difference. There's a difference between acting confident and being confident.

edited 18th Jan '13 3:11:04 PM by Lascoden

boop
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#7242: Jan 18th 2013 at 3:16:05 PM

What the hell......? Blue Ninja, did you just back me up?

Starship Maxima is a program built and run by the FRC. - Maxima Ahah! So you admit it! - Ninja

Runtime error! DLL

Scan appropriate response - "No way!", "You lie!", "What on Earth do you mean?"

Response select: "Well....just cause I'm an AI built by the FRC, that means I'm more entitled to religious freedom.

It's subtle, but it makes a huge difference. There's a difference between acting confident and being confident.

Your thoughts on the idea that the more you do something the more it becomes your true nature?

edited 18th Jan '13 3:26:37 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#7243: Jan 18th 2013 at 3:50:01 PM

Another problem is this: How do we know that our rights keep getting denied won't turn out worse? So yes, it goes both ways. - kay
Actually, I'm pretty sure that, in the long run, having your rights denied will be worse. But I don't think that having everyone lie to change the status quo is the right way to go about it. Mostly my point was that choosing what looks like a "harmless" wrong action often turns out to be not so harmless, and you can't always predict if it's actually harmless.

I would be on his side, obviously, since no one should get discriminated against. - kay
Added italics for emphasis. smile

dealing with confidence issues, what I've been told is not to act like your confident - Lascoden
I mentioned it because I recall an article from a month or two ago, that standing in a "power pose" is enough to temporarily alter your neurochemistry and increase your confidence level. How is that not faking it?

Blue Ninja, did you just back me up? - Maxima
More than likely I just backed over you. But don't worry, I've got insurance.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#7244: Jan 18th 2013 at 3:56:28 PM

[up] Well, you might not think so, but I don't really see anything wrong with it.

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#7245: Jan 18th 2013 at 3:58:11 PM

I mentioned it because I recall an article from a month or two ago, that standing in a "power pose" is enough to temporarily alter your neurochemistry and increase your confidence level. How is that not faking it?

Fascinating. Links?

More than likely I just backed over you. But don't worry, I've got insurance.

As long as you don't have some shitty State Farm insurance.

It was an honor
Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#7246: Jan 18th 2013 at 4:02:17 PM

@Starship: But...but State Farm said they'd be always be there for me! sad

Seriously though at the moment I'm agreeing with kay.

BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#7247: Jan 18th 2013 at 4:03:31 PM

[up][up] I was searching for it; I can't find the actual article I read but it was based on this TED talk I think.

edited 18th Jan '13 4:03:45 PM by BlueNinja0

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
Lascoden ... from Missouri, USA Since: Nov, 2012
...
#7248: Jan 18th 2013 at 4:04:04 PM

I mentioned it because I recall an article from a month or two ago, that standing in a "power pose" is enough to temporarily alter your neurochemistry and increase your confidence level. How is that not faking it?
I've actually never heard of anything like that. If true, I guess it could be helpful. Do you think you could find the article again, it sounds interesting.

Your thoughts on the idea that the more you do something the more it becomes your true nature?
I've always felt that there is nothing that can change your "true nature". You can bury parts, and enhance parts. I've always felt that instead of money "changing" people, it just magnifies their more negative aspects. Now, what constitutes your "true nature", and how it forms, I think is up for debate, and might vary from person to person.

boop
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#7249: Jan 18th 2013 at 4:06:00 PM

Providing real insurance so you don't have to rely on State Farm. That's All State's stand. Are you in good hands?

Seriously though at the moment I'm agreeing with kay.
I know. And I understand. Ever since this schism has been made apparent I keep running a thousand possibilities and I still can't stomach the thought of being comfortable with using lies to achieve truth. Of ignoring honor to achieve honorable ends.

It runs counter to every thing I thought we were all in this for.

It was an honor
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#7250: Jan 18th 2013 at 4:06:41 PM

I've always felt that there is nothing that can change your "true nature". - Lascoden
What can change the nature of a man?

You can bury parts, and enhance parts. - Lascoden
Totally read that as "You can buy parts" and went, This isn't the thread for that discussion.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw

Total posts: 16,956
Top