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Discussion of religion in the context of LGBTQ+ rights is only allowed in this thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBTQ+ rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

Edited by Mrph1 on Dec 1st 2023 at 6:52:14 PM

majoraoftime (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#5676: Dec 7th 2012 at 8:49:41 PM

[up] So, sex for non-reproductive purposes in any situation is immoral? Why? We have 6 billion humans on the planet already.

Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#5677: Dec 7th 2012 at 8:51:09 PM

Okay. I wish more people could admit that. smile

Reproduction does have justification in some places of the world, on the other hand, unless almost every couple is gay... that can't be a problem since enough will procreate. And it's also noted that even homosexual couples often have an opposite sex used to create a baby. A surrogate, if I remember the term correctly. So there's no excuse even then.

[up] Pretty sure she admitted otherwise.

edited 7th Dec '12 8:52:13 PM by Hydronix

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Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#5678: Dec 7th 2012 at 9:17:09 PM

That, and we're in rather desperate need of adoption.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#5679: Dec 7th 2012 at 9:34:32 PM

Sex is not only a vaccine. That's just one of the primary reasons that it's designed the way it is. It is also there for reproduction. We can be designed to do something for multiple reasons.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
CalamityJane from None of your business Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Robosexual
#5680: Dec 7th 2012 at 9:44:28 PM

I understand now. Thanks for letting me know the faults of my arguments. One of the best ways to know if your line of thinking is valid is to have it tested. And while I do believe that sex for non-reproductive purposes is immoral, that's my problem and nobody else's.

edited 7th Dec '12 9:45:34 PM by CalamityJane

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RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#5681: Dec 7th 2012 at 10:44:31 PM

@Jhimmibob: one of the nice things about a relevance argument is that you can ignore something once you find it isn't applicable to the issue in question. Likewise, at some point, you have to be willing to turn down stuff that you haven't read and gone over with a fine-toothed comb, lest you become vulnerable to the Gish Gallop.

I'll admit my biases and my position. I'm a heterosexual atheist. I have no skin in this game, am in support of LGBTQ rights because I don't like how other people are treated unfairly, and I'd be happy to have the "faults of religion" discussion except that it's neither the topic of this thread nor appropriate for this forum. I am, unsurprisingly, not all that sympathetic to Aquinas (though I won't reject everything he says out of hand either).

However, if the Aquinas-quoting theological establishment shows evidence of having trained themselves to be bad at assessing arguments related to homosexuality (because they've been training themselves to be really good at preserving the arguments of old established authority regardless of their relevance or soundness) then religious people trying to reconcile their faith with their positions on LGBTQ rights are going to find said theological establishment worse than useless, and so the establishment arguments will get completely ignored when those religious people decide on their faith in that context. If theologians want to zone themselves out of the game that way, fine by me. What will happen is that a new theological establishment that's all for LGBTQ rights will arise, and 100 years from now they'll claim that their faith has always supported LGBTQ rights just like it always supported civil rights for racial minorities.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
#5682: Dec 8th 2012 at 12:12:31 AM

[up][tup]Bascially, this.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#5683: Dec 8th 2012 at 4:04:55 AM

Another thing weakening "Because God says so" is that God didn't even make an attempt as saying why, not even with non-arguments such as "it will cause problems on the long run, that would take too long to explain". Instead, nothing but (supposedly) "it's an 'abomination'".

Also slightly off-topic, the "men who let women top will be denied heaven" thing; it's either pure misogyny or because "it's less likely to cause pregnancy, therefore doubleplusungood crimesex".

Edit: Now it's got me wondering if "it's an abomination to God" doesn't mean "God Himself is male and hetero, and doesn't want to see gay sex, and since God sees everything you musn't do it at all, for it always turns Him off."

Edit2: And then it was relaxed along with all those other rules in Bible NT™, because Mary likes her yaois.

edited 8th Dec '12 4:11:36 AM by Medinoc

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
Lawyerdude Citizen from my secret moon base Since: Jan, 2001
Citizen
#5684: Dec 8th 2012 at 6:09:04 AM

Even if I believed in God, and even if I believed that God held certain opinions on sex, there is still the underlying question as to why I (or any theist) should care. After all, what makes God's opinion on something any more or less valid than mine or anybody else's? I may like vanilla ice cream, and my neighbor may like chocolate. That doesn't make one of us right and the other wrong, and it doesn't give either of us the right to prevent the other from enjoying ice cream.

Or to put it another way, what if I said, "Yes, I agree that God says homosexuality is a sin. So what?"

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#5685: Dec 8th 2012 at 6:54:44 AM

Well, God is supposedly that old wise guy you ought to listen to.

What if no one listened to Gandalf in Lord Of The Rings? They'd be screwed, that's what! xD

edited 8th Dec '12 6:55:07 AM by kay4today

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#5686: Dec 8th 2012 at 7:05:03 AM

...But is God Gandalf the Grey or Gandalf the White?

kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#5687: Dec 8th 2012 at 7:05:55 AM

Well OT!God is Gandalf the Grey. NT!God is Gandalf the White!

rmctagg09 The Wanderer from Brooklyn, NY (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Talby Since: Jun, 2009
#5689: Dec 8th 2012 at 10:57:40 AM

Indeed, even if we were to accept the existence of God as a fact, you've still got all your work ahead of you if you expect us to worship him. If the God of the Bible really existed, my first order of business would be, "okay, how do we kill the bastard?"

edited 8th Dec '12 10:57:49 AM by Talby

Haldo Indecisive pumpkin from Never never land Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
Indecisive pumpkin
#5690: Dec 8th 2012 at 11:01:56 AM

[up]You can't, his power level is infinitely larger than yours.

And while I do believe that sex for non-reproductive purposes is immoral, that's my problem and nobody else's.
Your attitude. I like dat shit [tup]

‽‽‽‽ ^These are interrobangs. Love them. Learn them. Use them.
Talby Since: Jun, 2009
#5691: Dec 8th 2012 at 11:05:19 AM

[up]Good thing he's made up, then.

Haldo Indecisive pumpkin from Never never land Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
Indecisive pumpkin
#5692: Dec 8th 2012 at 11:51:54 AM

[up]Says you.

‽‽‽‽ ^These are interrobangs. Love them. Learn them. Use them.
Elfive (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#5693: Dec 8th 2012 at 11:56:18 AM

We just need to get all the other gods to gang up on him.

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#5694: Dec 8th 2012 at 11:57:44 AM

...But many of the other gods are just as bad...

Though Hades isn't so bad... Nor is the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Haldo Indecisive pumpkin from Never never land Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
Indecisive pumpkin
#5695: Dec 8th 2012 at 11:58:26 AM

[up][up]Given that God is kind of like the universe, only sentient, that would difficult.

edited 8th Dec '12 11:58:37 AM by Haldo

‽‽‽‽ ^These are interrobangs. Love them. Learn them. Use them.
Elfive (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#5696: Dec 8th 2012 at 12:11:59 PM

You are seriously underestimating how badass Odin is.

Haldo Indecisive pumpkin from Never never land Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
Indecisive pumpkin
#5697: Dec 8th 2012 at 12:12:24 PM

You really think he can beat up the universe itself?

‽‽‽‽ ^These are interrobangs. Love them. Learn them. Use them.
Elfive (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Talby Since: Jun, 2009
#5699: Dec 8th 2012 at 12:25:27 PM

Don't forget Thor and his hammer.

Ekuran Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#5700: Dec 8th 2012 at 12:38:16 PM

Bitch please, Buddha kicks all kinds of celestial ass, and he ain't even a god.


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