Discussion of religion in the context of LGBTQ+ rights is only allowed in this thread.
Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBTQ+ rights..." threads.
Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.
Edited by Mrph1 on Dec 1st 2023 at 6:52:14 PM
Sorry to say this, but you guys in this thread really don't comprehend christianity, or any religion, or the concept of religion.
If you want any of my avatars, just Pm me I'd truly appreciate any avatar of a reptile sleeping in a Nice Hat Read Elmer Kelton booksThe problem with Religion in politics is that those who are following the relgious practices solely because of religion only have God to back their opinion up. Those that follow the more progressive tenets of Christianity use the same arguments as normal progressives, because they understand that their faith is supporting what they already beleive is good in and of itself.
The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.Religion is like a blanket. You want to go and make blankets for everybody so they won't be cold anymore. You want to spread your warmth and comfort and help people. Other people make different kinds of blanket, and they're not your blanket, and that's not what keeps you warm, but the important thing is that somebody goes out into the cold world and gives the freezing people blankets.
You don't say "Oh, you're wearing X blanket? It's full of holes and is wrong!" You say "Oh, you're wearing X blanket? Try my blanket, it will keep you warmer, it's always worked for me".
If you go around tearing up other people's blankets, you're missing the point of religion.
Also, for the purposes of this metaphor, atheism and agnosticism count as religions.
If you want any of my avatars, just Pm me I'd truly appreciate any avatar of a reptile sleeping in a Nice Hat Read Elmer Kelton booksOr, alternately, be so kind as to say, "I hope that you are happy with your blanket, and that you keep warm beneath it, but if it does not keep you warm enough then you may share mine."
edited 28th Apr '12 1:35:39 PM by JHM
I'll hide your name inside a word and paint your eyes with false perception.Ideally, that would be what religions are like. In reality, most of the time, they seem to just be another thing that conveniently divides and dehumanizes us, like nationality or political party. Whatever warmth and succor they provide is frequently in danger of being outweighed by the harm and division they cause.
I can't go to church with my family anymore. I wish I could. I can sit respectfully through worship and prayer, and admire the choir and songs. But when the hatred-that-I-didn't-used-to-hear comes tumbling out of the pastor's mouth, and everyone around me smiles and nods... the feeling of alienation stays for hours, days.
Smile for me!Can I say right now that in all my years of churchgoing I've never heard a priest/deacon/pastor/whoever is presiding over the mass that day spewing hatred toward anyone? Where do all of you people live or what denomination is your church that you regularly hear bile from the people who preside over your masses?
Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.![]()
![]()
That's not a tall like how anybody at my church acts.
I haven't either. None of the pastors I've ever had really go into hot-button issues at all in the pulpit, and the one time gay marriage ever came up it was because one of them landed in hot water for blessing a union against his superiors' wishes. My Catholic grade school didn't mention it one way or the other either. I'd assume it happens more often with evangelical sects further south, and of course itinerant street preachers tend to be a good deal more voracious.
That's not to say homophobic garbage was absent, but it was basically random jock-type dudebros who saw it as an affront to their masculinity and/or LOL BUTTSEX, rather than Bible-thumpers condemning it for religious reasons.
This
might be an enlightening breakdown of what's going on within our denomination. As with many of our other controversial official stances, a majority of Catholics oppose it (albeit a smaller one than some of our more spectacular backlashes like contraception) and there is considerable pressure from within the Church to stop being douches about it.
One of the main problems is that in order to officially accept it, we'd have to go back on a lot of long-standing documents, which would itself necessitate tearing out a lot of long-standing dogmas that grant the magisterium more power than it should have. As long as those are in place, there's this hideous cycle in place where they're basically bound to hold their position ever more loudly to maintain legitimacy, which will naturally stifle dissent within the authority itself and concentrate people who believe what it's already arguing. I'd call it inertia, but it's more like spinning in place and hoping it doesn't fly apart.
edited 28th Apr '12 3:13:54 PM by Pykrete
Religion for me is life. It is a way to live my life, to think, to learn, to strive. There's goals for me to live by and morals. Things to strive for and philosophies to learn and keep to. I'm just a student now who is slowly learning, but one day I shall breath and live Dhamma in truth and completely.
Religion is also family and home for me. The wat I go to is home. It's my family. That place? It's home to me. I feel right and I feel safe and that means a lot to me. I feel like I have friends and parents there. Which means a lot to me.
It's also given me something to continually test. It's a significant part of my therapy and while I do place a great level of trust in it I don't place total trust in it. I test the things I believe and seek to vindicate my faith via proving it to myself.
Other religions to me also represent togetherness as well as diversity. Yes people can be dicks, but there are religious places of gathering where one can go and find friends even if they aren't of that faith. That means a lot to me. Even though we are all different we can work towards the same goals and love each other. Yes it can encourage hate, but it can encourage love as well. As it does at my wat.
When it comes to other places of religious gathering I in particular seek to go to Buttercupistiny's church again sometime. I quite liked it. There was something there that felt right and warm. It brought me to tears.
If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan ChahYeah I've never heard anything like that kind of bile like that at mass.
The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.That's generally what we get as well. The only time other religions were brought up was when someone brought their Catholic friends specifically for a "WHEE LET'S SHARE OUR THINGS :D" meeting at the wat. Homosexuality comes up only when others bring it up in casual conversation outside and we're very supportive of it.
edited 28th Apr '12 6:08:07 PM by Aondeug
If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan ChahI don't attend church services regularly. Haven't for over a decade. I try to keep aware of what's going on by reading and listening to what people are saying. Press releases and statements from prominent individuals and organizations, resolutions and statements of dogma all provide insight into what people believe. If an official body says something, it's not a great leap to conclude that's what the followers believe.
What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.You are in a thread with several people who have told you, in great detail and many times, what their opinions are. You have ignored them in favour of clinging to your view of 'all christians are bigoted assholes deep down'.
No, you are not listening to what people are saying.
Be not afraid...Yes, a few individuals have said here how they disagree with their religion's official beliefs on the homosexuality issue. But based on the fact that their beliefs are often contradictory to the official line, I'm sure you understand if I am skeptical.
What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.What is there to be sceptical about? Do you think all the christians in this thread have been lying to you about how we don't hate gay people? Why would we do that, and more to the point, why would you assume that?
How many christians have you met, online and in real life, and how many of them have been bigots?
Be not afraid...You need to go out and mingle. A lot. Learn what all manners of groups think.
And drop any confirmation bias you may have. Keep it on mind at all times.
Because no. Religious people aren't all what you think they are. Nor are they mostly what you think they are in my experience. Are there those that are dicks? Yes. They're people.
The level of skepticism you display is at times offensive to me. Especially the "Aren't the WBC saying what Christians thinking inside?" thing.
And no it's not just us saying that we disagree with "our religion's stance" - it's not a stance of the religion in all cases. It's also us pointing out that we know people, many people, who don't fit what you describe. At all.
Be open to learn and befriend. Yeah you'll get burned, but honestly? I find it much better than being afraid or hateful.
edited 29th Apr '12 8:36:53 PM by Aondeug
If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan ChahI think he is skeptical about the assumption that most Christians would be alright with gay people or gay rights. And he's not wrong, Christians for gay rights are the exception not the rule, or you wouldn't have things like the incidents in posted in this thread go unreprimanded of church officials.
edited 29th Apr '12 8:38:01 PM by LMage
Bigotry has layers. It's rare to find people who stand on street corners with signs, although I have seen them. Most of the time it's more insidious than that. "We love them, just not their lifestyle" is popular, as is "Hate the sin, love the sinner". These days it's not so much about having them burned at the stake, and instead more about denying them equal rights and legal recognition through the ballot box.
What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.Not everyone who goes with "Hate the sin, love the sinner" goes with trying to minimize rights. The Dalai Lama is among this small group. This group needs to be larger. Honestly I'm fine with the belief so long as they aren't actively fighting against the right to practice my beliefs and rights. I'm happy friends with someone who thinks that way. Said person's a bro and I trust them. They know I have a girlfriend. They know I don't consider it bad. And we're cool.
Sadly this group is smaller than I'd like. It needs to be larger. We need more people willing to fight for the rights of those who don't hold their views. I want them to be larger and I want to fight for their right to refuse to marry people in their churches. Just as I want them to stand by me and my right to marry in my own methods far away from their churches.
Sadly there are few of these. We need more of them. I feel in my heart that there will never be many of them, however. I will fight for that dream though. Hey if I can talk at least one person onto my side then maybe just maybe I can make this stance grow...
edited 29th Apr '12 8:47:22 PM by Aondeug
If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan ChahEven the idea, saying that "it's a sin" dehumanizes the person. When I hear "homosexuality is a sin" to me it sounds no different than "left handedness is a sin" or "not being white is a sin". It's an immutable characteristic. I couldn't choose to be gay if I wanted to, just as I can't change my height or eye color.
What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.

What I find mildly ironic here is that if LGBT organisations hold assemblies in schools denouncing homophobic bullying then a lot of these religious groups will make a huge fuss about it being part of the gay agenda to recruit children, however they don't seem to realise or at the very least refuse to acknowledge that they are more guilty of that then the people they're protesting about. It's quite infuriating actually.
What's also infuriating is that in light of those figures of teen suicides that they'd continue to perpetuate their poison to further whatever agenda they have at the expense of those who are most vulnerable. They're quick to cry 'But think of the children!' but the evidence shows they don't really give a shit at all. Now that doesn't infuriate me. That makes me absolutely livid.
We need less people like this: http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/04/28/vatican-archbishop-calls-for-alliance-with-muslims-and-jews-against-equal-marriage/
And more people like this: http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/04/22/churchs-opposition-to-equal-marriage-disastrous-senior-bishop-says/