LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion

That's not what I fucking said at all. I'm saying there are ALSO other issues that people focus on. Not that they're more important.

Morg, if all you're going to do is misrepresent my arguments, please stop posting here.

And L Mage, you seem to once again be conflating Christians with "the Church". Many Christians in the US spend a lot of effort helping causes that fight homelessness and fund medical research. Plus, a lot of people have their own troubles to work out. Someone who has to work multiple jobs and has an unstable family is unlikely to have the time or energy to fight for any cause.

edited 8th Sep '12 3:03:15 PM by Boredman

cum

It sure as hell sounds like what you said to me. And I refuse to stop posting here. I'm not breaking any rules.

edited 8th Sep '12 3:05:55 PM by Morgikit

L Mage was saying that LGBT rights are the most important issue for anybody in the country. JT was pointing out that others have different priorities and commitments to other causes. The fight for gay rights is not the only issue that people care about. People only have a certain amount of time and energy they can devote to any cause.

And since now I'm just getting shouted down and having my arguments strawmanned, I may as well quit.

cum

<hugs Bored> Guys... making people yell at you and flip the table because you don't listen to them isn't a win: it's a lose.

Actually, I think it's important to look at economic issues before social ones. And I don't just mean gay rights. When you focus on improving the economy, specifically ensuring that there is more economic fairness for all groups of people, it will be much easier for them to achieve equality.

And on the other side, there's also the money that's spent promoting bigotry. I mean, when it comes to just about anything in politics, money is probably the most important factor.

I haven't made anyone do anything. I haven't attacked anyone or told people to stop posting or accused anyone of strawmanning.

I'm not at all saying that just because other evils are going on doesn't mean LBGT issues aren't important; I'm just saying that it isn't the only other issue. Nobody is saying that LGBT rights is something that shouldn't be addressed, or that you need to shut up and wait your turn. But at the same time, it feels like you're saying that nothing else the church does matters if they aren't putting a special emphasis on addressing that issue.

As for this

I agree that LGBT rights to be addressed, but I also think things like poverty, homelessness, domestic violence, lack of health care, and gang violence also need to be addressed,because they can be just as, if not more, destructive. I feel like we're making an all-or-nothing dichotomy here. Yes, LBGT is a legitimate issue that merits consideration. Is it the single most important issue that the church should address? I don't know. The point can be argued. But I don't think you can demonize somebody who chooses to work on eliminating poverty in the inner city because they aren't campaigning for LGBT rights.

Also:

This is basically the point I was making. I'm not trying to belittle gay rights activists in any way, I'm just saying that people are just as dedicated to other causes, and the fact that they don't focus on gay rights doesn't make them bad people.

For example: I'm going to be honest and say that right now I tend to prioritize poverty-related issues over most others, because I live in an area that's very much poverty stricken. I know a lot of (Christian) people who have dedicated years of their lives to helping people get educations, get jobs, get homes, and get medical attention that they wouldn't have gotten otherwise, with no compensation, doing it solely because they want to help people. I know people who would have died from drug overdoses or starvation if they didn't receive that help. Out of the people who facilitated that, not all of them are active LGBT advocates, but I don't think that in any way makes them less good than someone who is.

Again, I'm not trying to downplay the importance of LGBT rights, I'm just saying that other people feel just as strongly about other causes, and that isn't wrong.

edited 8th Sep '12 3:23:43 PM by JapaneseTeeth

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Demonizing every one who isn't as all in on something as you on a subject will not win people over. Are you or are you not trying to win people over? There's subjects I feel are more important than LGBT issues right now, and I'll focus on those since the world is far from perfect and getting upset that everyone doesn't hold the same priorities you do won't help the issue.

Fight smart, not fair.

There's subjects I feel are more important than LGBT issues right now

I'm quite certain you do. I'm also quite certain that you don't have to wake up every morning for the rest of your life and face a world that hates you, a world where you will be bombard with snide contempt and condensation for being open about yourself, a world where you will hear story after horrific story about people like you driven to suicide, cast out from their families, or dragged away to what amounts to psychological torture all because they dared to be honest with people they trusted, and world where you could die for no better reason then you wanted to kiss the person you loved on a street corner.

You will never have these problems, not for one day in your life. But I will until the day I die. So forgive me for being displeased with the position that there are "more important issues right now", because, arrogant as this may sound, I will never stop expecting human suffering and death to be the most important issue.

But then....It's gay people, clearly their suffering and death isn't as important as charity balls and housing projects.

edited 8th Sep '12 3:36:12 PM by LMage

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"

Human suffering and death are the most important issues. I fully agree with that. But let's get one thing straight:

You are not the only person who is suffering.

The veteran who's living on the street because the government doesn't give a shit whether he lives or dies? He's suffering.

Children who get abused by their parents, drop out of school, and get forced to sell drugs to make money for food? They're suffering.

A mentally ill person who's reduced to picking food out of a garbage can to stay alive because he can't get anyone to give him a job? He's suffering.

A woman who's dying of cancer because she can't afford medical treatment? She's suffering too.

An orphan who grew up in the foster care system because their parents abandoned them, forcing them to bounce from family to family for decades because no one wants to keep them. That's suffering too.

I'm not saying you aren't suffering. I have no doubt that you are. But you aren't the only one who is, and there are millions of other people whose lives are just as bad or worse for reasons other than a lack of LGBT rights. I don't want you to suffer; I sincerely wish you didn't have to. But don't you dare tell me that I'm a bad person just because I'm helping someone in need just because they aren't suffering from the same thing you are.

Yes, human death and suffering are horrible and should be stopped at all costs. This includes saving people by giving them food, medical attention, and housing if they need it. No the suffering of gay people is not any less important than housing projects or food banks, or whatever, but it's not any more important either. People suffer from a multitude of different reasons and different people feel the need to address all those reasons, whether it's due to a lack of LGBT rights, a lack of civil rights, a lack of housing, a lack of medicine, or a lack of food.

I care about human death and suffering, and you have no right to tell me otherwise.

edited 8th Sep '12 3:50:37 PM by JapaneseTeeth

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We have to focus on economic issues. Not because they are more important than LGBT issues, but because they are LGBT issues. They are everything.

We need to ensure affordable healthcare, education, and housing for everyone. We need to keep politics from being dominated by special interest groups, many of which are the reason homophobia has so much legal power. We've got to stop employment discrimination, whether it's based on sexual orientation, race, gender, or something else.

None of these are specifically about LGBT issues, but they would benefit them as a group regardless. Besides, these are all (just a few of) the things that need to be done before... well, just about any major social change happens.

edited 8th Sep '12 3:51:33 PM by HilarityEnsues

L Mage is being a bit...harsh. But look at it from our perspective. Being told your problems aren't that important? How would the veteran and the children and the rest feel if someone told them "there are issues more important than yours to worry about"?

edited 8th Sep '12 3:51:49 PM by Morgikit

That is true, but there is no group suffering in such proliferation as the LGBT community, and there is also no group that it would be simpler to help. All it takes is standing up as one and saying "These people, these ones spewing their hatred and causing these deaths? Are wrong and must be stopped."

Their are doctors, and psychologists, and police, and many 'many other groups out their helping the orphans, and the veterans and sick. If the Church and the Christians really want to do some good then a great place to start would be purging the people supposedly perverting their message from the ranks, because as it is allowing them to fester unhindered and still in the name of Christianity is tantamount to permitting them to keep on causing suffering

I really, really don't want Faith in anymore forms of government, and the economy is the government's domain.

edited 8th Sep '12 3:53:06 PM by LMage

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"

I don't want faith in the government either; I'm not sure where you got that idea.

And legalizing gay marriage would also be up to the government, but people have still talked about that...

Pretty bad, but as (as far as I can tell) no one has said "there are issues more important than yours to worry about" or "your problems aren't that important" you can understand how people are getting annoyed at being strawmaned.

So far the closest anyone has said to "your problems aren't that important" is "can you not demonise people who spend their time trying to help people who (while no more in need of help then you) aren't you". Because that's what the others seem to be saying. If a guy spends his time handing out food to the hungry, don't get hating on him because he's so tired at the end that he doesn’t immediately go and start a pro gay rights march.

edited 8th Sep '12 3:57:03 PM by Silasw

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran

@ Hilarity

Well we are discussing the Church, Faith, and so on in relation to policy and homosexuality specifically.

Deboss specificlly said "There's subjects I feel are more important than LGBT issues right now" just a few posts up. That is what I was responding to.

edited 8th Sep '12 3:59:12 PM by LMage

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly it. I'm just getting the feeling that they don't care about any humanitarian work that isn't being done to help the LGBT community. Like "It doesn't matter that you got a bunch of guys off the street because you haven't helped the pro-gay cause".

And that's a purely personal decision, not a statement that all LGBT issues should me marginalized in favor of other stuff. I'm talking about purely personal decisions here.

edited 8th Sep '12 4:00:48 PM by JapaneseTeeth

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That's a pretty strong accusation, there.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything, It's just that I feel like people have repeatedly stated that everyone ought to prioritize LGBT causes over everything else, and I don't think I agree with that statement. If I'm mis-stating something I'd welcome an explanation.

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@JT

You know when it get's down to it, I'm not even asking for much, just take responsibility for your own religion and bring down those you claim are misusing it. Because by not attack against them you are indirectly aiding them in their suffering.

That's all. Police you own people. That's all I'm asking. That's all the help we need. Shut up the nutters and fundamentalists you claim are in the wrong but are using your faith to do their work and then rush off back to saving puppies and orphans. It shouldn't be that hard.

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"

@L Mage: As I've said before: We're trying. It isn't an issue that can be resolved overnight, and as otherwise noted, there's no single big Christian Church authority that we can go to an petition. Each denomination has to go through their own process. Even if the church I attend is all about LBGT rights, it's impossible for us to force other churches to change unless they want to. A lot of churches have come out and expressed support, but beyond that, they can't go saying that other churches have to follow suit. It just doesn't work that way.

Because here's the thing: Even if every LBGT church denounced every anti-LBGT church, it wouldn't help. The anti churches would just go "great, they're gone!" and keep on going. This issue can only be resolved over time.

edited 8th Sep '12 4:11:16 PM by JapaneseTeeth

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@JT: The problem here is that stuff like this still happens with enough regularity that it feels like people who make your argument*

are saying "Christian groups help poor people, so we don't care if they're still oppressing you", even if that's not what you mean.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

edited 8th Sep '12 4:22:14 PM by Robotnik

Yeah, that's not at all what I'm trying to say. All I'm saying is that I don't find anything wrong with people who choose not to actively pursue LGBT activism. It's certainly an issue that should be addressed, but I don't think that everyone needs to address it. Other activism isn't an excuse to neglect other issues. I'm just saying it goes both ways; the church shouldn't ignore LGBT rights entirely in favor of feeding the poor, but on the flip side they don't get to completely forgo feeding the poor to tackle LGBT issues. The church as a whole (insofar as it can be considered a whole) needs to give both issues due consideration. You can't neglect either.

My point is that an individual person can't address every issue, so on an individual basis they specialize. Some of them ought to handle LGBT issues, others ought to handle other things.

edited 8th Sep '12 4:22:46 PM by JapaneseTeeth

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X5 See that's where you hit a problem. You see Christians as one big group that are all united. I'm a member of the Anglican Church, but I don't even self identify into that, if I asked I would probably say I was a member of the Church of England. Now that would make since for me to then try and ensure that as a member of the Church of England we are at least not blocking LGBT progress. However why the hell should I be responsible for the action of some crazy priest in the US, who might not even be Anglican (and is certainly not Church of England)? It's the equivalent of me saying "the US is majorly racist (when I’m taking say, Texas as representative of the entire US), as you are an American it is your responsibility to deal with that fact" Now unless you live in Texas your reaction to that statement would probably be to tell me that you're not responsible for Texas, just like how many Christians are making it clear that they are not responsible for denominations beyond their own.

(Note the use of Texas in my analogy is purely random and in no way a representation of my view of Texas (I don’t have a view on Texas))

edited 8th Sep '12 4:15:38 PM by Silasw

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran