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abstractematics Since: May, 2011
#351: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:03:04 PM

I think Real Life should stay if it's documented in a work of art, literature or media, while pure, exposed RL (not from any work) can be considered for removal.

Now using Trivialis handle.
Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#352: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:03:23 PM

Some tropes do well with RL examples.

Especially Historical like you read in a history book (Bling of War for one) News reports, and other things

We could get rid of Real Life altogether and add sections like

and such.

edited 6th Apr '12 2:03:58 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#353: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:04:03 PM

Agree with the Delvarian plan.

[up][up]These aren't RL examples, they go to the corresponding work.

edited 6th Apr '12 2:04:40 PM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#354: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:04:35 PM

We're only talking about culling RL examples on Sex, Porn, and Rape Tropes. We are not talking about culling Real Life examples in general. Please stop side tracking things.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#355: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:04:44 PM

I think the deal with stuff like news is that we can trope the news media itself; the article or report or whatever, but not the event that the news is reporting on. Like if a particular news article gets a trope page, all the examples should be about the article, not about the RL event.

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Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#356: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:05:38 PM

I believe all the Real Life example sections on the rape tropes have been removed. I cut a few myself but most pages had already had them taken care of.

Delvarian Since: Apr, 2010
#357: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:06:14 PM

Thanks for the support of this plan shimaspawn and Septimus Heap.

I still have one question though. How much time do we before the tropes in the Rape Tropes index are culled if they are not fixed? And then how long until the Sex Tropes and Porn Tropes are afflicted?

Always looking for a good MMORPG with a great community...
Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#358: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:07:16 PM

Sllightly offtopic:

I can actually agree on cutting Real Life examples on anything, not just Sex Tropes, since this Wiki is supposed to be about fictional works. Sex Tropes applied to religious texts and stories would be a real problem, though. For non believers, they are only fictional works like any other, but what of believers?
We could either also have a ban on applying tropes to religion and mythology... I mean, that's often just flamebait anyway. Such a ban would hence be an application of the Rule Of Cautious Editing. Or we simply tell religious people to deal with it, that would work, too, heh.

I think that Real Life can be culled on Sex Tropes and Rape Tropes. I don't think we need to start culling them on things like Big Fancy Castle.
Tropes are fiction, not Real Life. Plus, it can get creepy once we go into any sort of tropes dealipersonal attributes...

—-

On topic and important:

We do not want to criticize works that use them - we are documentors at first, not critics.
Yes, we goddamn do. Works that use things like Rape Is Love are terrible not only by standards of literature critics, but by, you know, simple standards of human decency. So yes, we should be wanting to critisize and condemn them!

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
CrypticMirror Cryptic Mirror from Scotland Since: Jan, 2001
#359: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:08:17 PM

We'll never be able to condemn these tropes strongly enough for some people (because a large chunk of them don't genuinely care about whatever the trope is, they just want to beat us up, that is all they are in the game for), and if we start putting in a judgement they will hound us no matter what the condemnation is or how strongly it is. It becomes a pawn in their game of getting jollies, or in their agenda. We should have nice neutral, bland, perhaps a little obtuse, name that offers no judgement. The only way to win this is to deprive them of ammunition. That means staying out of the judgement game, because harsh judgement will never be harsh enough.

The Moral Guardian group, and the bash-tvtropes-trolls are currently scenting blood, we play into their hands by over-reacting and over-correcting.

edited 6th Apr '12 2:08:29 PM by CrypticMirror

Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#360: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:08:23 PM

We're not condemning any works. At all.

That is against the Wiki's goal completely. It ain't happening.

If you don't like it, don't read it. We do not have opinions on the main page no matter what.

edited 6th Apr '12 2:09:10 PM by Hydronix

Quest 64 thread
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#361: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:08:29 PM

Thus, Wikipedia can report about rape without it be seen as endorsment and we cannot. It's just in the nature of the wiki.

And as a philologist, I disagree. I analyze fiction daily, and that does not mean I'm cool with all the rape and the immorality that goes on in ancient works. This wiki is much the same, a documentation of media.

We are not negative when it comes to bashing works. The wiki as a whole has no positive opinion on tropes, and a negative should be made obvious in the controversial ones.

Hell, I'd argue to make this a disclaimer: "The wiki does not endorse the tropes it documents".

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#362: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:08:51 PM

[up]That is a good idea, that disclaimer.

In fact, I would propose such a banner for all the "dangerous" topics. This is a trope documented in fiction. This wiki doesn't endorse its usage, nor will its display on the site be tolerated

edited 6th Apr '12 2:10:05 PM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#363: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:09:20 PM

Going overboard in condemnation isn't going to be doing us any favors, Octo.

Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#364: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:09:40 PM

We're not condemning any works. At all.

That is against the Wiki's goal completely. It ain't happening.

Well, then those tropes must go. Either we condemn them, or we trash them!

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
Autumncomet from the hive Since: Jan, 2011
#365: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:10:11 PM

What if the work uses the trope but condemns the act?

So which version of the disclaimer are we using? The one I proposed was This is a trope documented in fiction. This behavior isn't okay by any means. Bolding absolutely necessary.

One Piece blog Beyond the Lampshade
Delvarian Since: Apr, 2010
#366: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:10:29 PM

Not here though! We need to balance positivity and negativity on this site. I agree that several tropes used in fiction are morally wrong in RL yet, if we take a stand that'll open up another can of worms. The wiki's goal is to neutrally document tropes in fiction, not act as a moral guardian or condemner against things we find repulsive.

Always looking for a good MMORPG with a great community...
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#367: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:10:40 PM

That's a false dichotomy, Octo. There are more options available than that. For one, we've started cleanup and have agreed upon disclaimers already.

We don't need to take a moral stance on things because that's not what tvtropes does.

edited 6th Apr '12 2:11:23 PM by Arha

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#368: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:10:46 PM

[up][up][up]This behaviour isn't endorsed by the wiki is better for me.

edited 6th Apr '12 2:11:00 PM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#369: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:11:07 PM

Sometimes I wonder if we couldn't find a way to make some Tropes accessible only to those Tropers who somehow show they are of legal age. I'm no expert on the subject, but is that possible with the model of Wiki we have here?

Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#370: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:11:38 PM

Neither is what we're doing, Octo.

Our job is to document things, not mudsling at all. Nor is gushing. Our job is to be neutral. We are not recommending a work by having a page on it whatsoever.

I like that, autumncomet.

edited 6th Apr '12 2:12:35 PM by Hydronix

Quest 64 thread
Delvarian Since: Apr, 2010
#371: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:11:57 PM

I agree with Septimus Heap and Autumncomet.

Having a disclaimer (This behavior isn't endorsed by the wiki on the pages in those three indexes would be a good idea.

@Octo: Let me say it again one more time, our job is to document neutrally not, be Moral Guardians. Have a disclaimer on those "controversial areas", and follow the plan of action

edited 6th Apr '12 2:13:25 PM by Delvarian

Always looking for a good MMORPG with a great community...
JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#372: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:12:00 PM

Yeah, I like the not endorsed by the wiki better. Makes it sound more official.

@NDC: I think it's possible in theory, but it would probably take more work than it's worth, and likely require a credit card or something for age verification.

edited 6th Apr '12 2:13:41 PM by JapaneseTeeth

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Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#373: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:12:08 PM

[up]x4 We have the NSFG wall already where there is a clickthough to get to certain tropes if you dont have it checked in your profile.

[up] agree.... some of these are legal in some places so lets set ourselves away from that and make it seem more official.

edited 6th Apr '12 2:13:30 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#374: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:13:20 PM

How about making it endorsed or approved, just to cover all bases?

Autumncomet from the hive Since: Jan, 2011
#375: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:13:34 PM

How about "This is a trope used in fiction. The wiki neither endorses nor approves this behavior."? Sounds a bit more active that way.

edited 6th Apr '12 2:13:58 PM by Autumncomet

One Piece blog Beyond the Lampshade

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