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Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#326: Apr 6th 2012 at 1:50:54 PM

Stick with an informative title and that's it

An informative title that shows we do not endorse the opinion. In the current situation a title like Rape Is Love is kind of not going to fly even if it's perfectly accurate and informative.

Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#327: Apr 6th 2012 at 1:51:05 PM

Some concepts just are bad. You cannot play the "people will be offended at anything" card on everything! And if we do not distance ourselves from those horrible concepts we will be (somewhat rightfully) seen as endorsing them!

/E: Ninja'ed, but on this topic I'm glad to be ninja'ed, heh.

edited 6th Apr '12 1:51:37 PM by Octo

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
Autumncomet from the hive Since: Jan, 2011
#328: Apr 6th 2012 at 1:51:20 PM

So what we're doing so far:

  1. Killing creepiness on Rape Tropes, Sex Tropes, and Porn Tropes index
  2. Killing RL examples on the Rape Tropes, Sex Tropes, and Porn Tropes indexes

Are we adding this disclaimer or something like it: "This is a trope documented in fiction. This behavior isn't okay by any means."? In addition to the above.

Ninjas all around!

An informative title that shows we do not endorse the opinion
Yes.

edited 6th Apr '12 1:54:05 PM by Autumncomet

One Piece blog Beyond the Lampshade
JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#329: Apr 6th 2012 at 1:52:07 PM

I'm definitely in favor of a disclaimer, as well as renaming any tropes that sound like they're putting a positive gloss on the subject matter.

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SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#330: Apr 6th 2012 at 1:52:17 PM

[up][up]A banner would be nice, and with "This is a trope documented in fiction. It's not an endorsement of this" at the end.

edited 6th Apr '12 1:52:42 PM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#331: Apr 6th 2012 at 1:52:27 PM

Such a disclaimer would be silly. "Don't do this IRL" should be obvious. Really now, guys, what the hell? No, a disclaimer wouldn't go far enough by any means. The entire tropes would need to be rewritten in a way that condemns the concepts and rips into works which use them.

edited 6th Apr '12 1:53:01 PM by Octo

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
DragonQuestZ The Other Troper from Somewhere in California Since: Jan, 2001
The Other Troper
#332: Apr 6th 2012 at 1:52:37 PM

[up]Um, a lot of Truth in Television tropes have RL examples that aren't creepy at all. They just state examples of the tropes.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#333: Apr 6th 2012 at 1:52:50 PM

Please yes to the Disclaimer. Some tropes are almost impossible to rename well.

So sometimes we need that little extra.

Quest 64 thread
Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#334: Apr 6th 2012 at 1:53:07 PM

[up]x6 Looking at some of the tropes in that index a vast majority of them are No RL Examples Please already.

edited 6th Apr '12 1:55:08 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#335: Apr 6th 2012 at 1:53:45 PM

Um, a lot of Truth in Television tropes have RL examples that aren't creepy at all. They just state examples of the tropes.
No, it's by definition not an example of the trope if it happens RL, because tropes are all about fiction!

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#336: Apr 6th 2012 at 1:53:54 PM

and rips into works which use them.

Like The Bible? evil grin

Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#337: Apr 6th 2012 at 1:54:17 PM

Why not?

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#338: Apr 6th 2012 at 1:54:28 PM

Wikipedia has pages on rape. That's no endorsement, it's documentation and it's written neutrally. Documentation is our goal. Disclaimer about "this thing is not cool here and will not be tolerated" along with a name that doesn't endorse the concept is what we need.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#339: Apr 6th 2012 at 1:55:22 PM

@Octo: I'll have to take issue with the "rip into works that use them" part of that; it's entirely possible for a work to use a negative trope without being a bad work. I.e. attempting to rape someone is obviously a horrible thing, but a work that uses Attempted Rape as a plot point is not bad by any means. Including a trope in a work doesn't equal endorsing the trope.

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Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#340: Apr 6th 2012 at 1:55:40 PM

Another thing we should add to that list there is see if it should actuually be on the index like Dude, She's Like in a Coma is not a Rape Tropes. I mean dude Snow White....

edited 6th Apr '12 1:56:34 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#341: Apr 6th 2012 at 1:56:51 PM

[up] I just culled real life on that one. Do you think it should have them? I can still cancel the edit.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
Octo Prince of Dorne from Germany Since: Mar, 2011
Prince of Dorne
#342: Apr 6th 2012 at 1:58:58 PM

Wikipedia has pages on rape. That's no endorsement, it's documentation and it's written neutrally. Documentation is our goal. Disclaimer about "this thing is not cool here and will not be tolerated" along with a name that doesn't endorse the concept is what we need.
Well, that's a bit disingenious, I think, because "We are not Wikipedia" has been used as argument here many many times over, and it's true. Sure, if you want to wikipedia-fy the entrie wiki, go right ahead: No jokes, no weird names, only dry and neutral descriptions. It's obvious we are not that. Plus, dealing with literature and other media will always have the aspect of criticism and analysis. Thus, Wikipedia can report about rape without it be seen as endorsment and we cannot. It's just in the nature of the wiki.

I'll have to take issue with the "rip into works that use them" part of that; it's entirely possible for a work to use a negative trope without being a bad work. I.e. attempting to rape someone is obviously a horrible thing, but a work that uses Attempted Rape as a plot point is not bad by any means. Including a trope in a work doesn't equal endorsing the trope.
Well, Attempted Rape is by definition a rape trope, but not per se one of the bad ones (only if works use it to appear dark and edgy, or if it's Stuffed into the Fridge syndrome, in which cases yes it should be called out). I was more thinking about Rape Is Love and the various terrible It's not Rape if... things.

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#343: Apr 6th 2012 at 1:59:46 PM

[up][up] Nuke 'em. They're not that bad, but it's no real loss.

Maybe move that somnophilia link to the description though, as in "In Real Life this is referred to as somnophilia."

edited 6th Apr '12 2:00:17 PM by Discar

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#344: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:00:17 PM

[up][up][up] A lot of those RL examples on that page I think are still creepy way beyond what the page actually covers in the description which is kissing and such.

edited 6th Apr '12 2:00:24 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#345: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:00:23 PM

Okay, that's a bit more understandable.

@lu: I'd say nuke it.

edited 6th Apr '12 2:00:45 PM by JapaneseTeeth

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NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#346: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:00:36 PM

I can actually agree on cutting Real Life examples on anything, not just Sex Tropes, since this Wiki is supposed to be about fictional works. Sex Tropes applied to religious texts and stories would be a real problem, though. For non believers, they are only fictional works like any other, but what of believers?

Akagikiba Surfing the forums from Midwest Since: Feb, 2012
Surfing the forums
#347: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:00:57 PM

Such a disclaimer would be silly. "Don't do this IRL" should be obvious. Really now, guys, what the hell? No, a disclaimer wouldn't go far enough by any means. The entire tropes would need to be rewritten in a way that condemns the concepts and rips into works which use them.

I agree. The No Negativity rule limits our ability to depict horrible acts for what they are. This makes the wiki way more creepy than any example gushing about a woman's thighs.

JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#348: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:01:16 PM

[up][up]Yeah, that is a bit of a minefield....

Although as somebody who's actually studied some of that subject matter I can definitely say that there are definitely tropes at work there in how things are written; it's just that depending on how much stock you put in historical accuracy (and whether they were intended to be historically accurate), it's more akin to stuff like News Tropes than fiction tropes. It's still a form of media, and still includes tropes that can be categorized. I mean, we trope non-fiction books, don't we?

edited 6th Apr '12 2:03:30 PM by JapaneseTeeth

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Delvarian Since: Apr, 2010
#349: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:02:18 PM

Alright from what I can agree with...

  • Remove the RL examples from Porn Tropes, Sex Tropes, and Rape Tropes
  • De-creepify and trim the examples from Porn Tropes, Sex Tropes, and Rape Tropes where necessary
  • Fix some of the titles in those indexes (along with adding in disclaimers) so that they are more neutral. We do not want to criticize works that use them - we are documentors at first, not critics.

edited 6th Apr '12 2:06:45 PM by Delvarian

Always looking for a good MMORPG with a great community...
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#350: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:02:36 PM

I think that Real Life can be culled on Sex Tropes and Rape Tropes. I don't think we need to start culling them on things like Big Fancy Castle.

[up] That sounds like a great plan of action.

edited 6th Apr '12 2:03:02 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

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